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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > FInale for iPad | Forum Quick Jump
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Brian Hanson
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 2/1/2010 9:34 PM (GMT -5) |   | | What would be the possibility of Finale for iPad? A lot of musicians still like the feel of writing things down instead of using the computer, and this seems like a "best of both worlds" scenario. I can't imagine how cool it would be to be on the road and to be able to do orchestrations without the computer. For live shows, you could even write in lighting cues in the digital score as you create a event. | | Back to Top | |
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tatane79
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 2/5/2010 8:56 AM (GMT -5) | | Hello,
I firmly believe that a good opportunity for makemusic will be to develop a specific user interface of Finale for the iPad, like Steve Jobs did for his iWork suite. Once you have seen the Keynotes, demonstrating the use of iWork softwares with your finger, you can easily imagine that Finale could do the same !
Moreover, through the AppStore, makemusic would have an amazing distribution channel, and I'm sure it would be a terrific valuable business for makemusic. How many amateurs are currently using a cracked version of Finale for Mac, and would buy immediately a license for their iPad ? I'm convinced that it would be a lot.
For transcription, a good inovation would be to integrate Finale for iPad with the music library of the iPad, a little bit like the fantastic tool "Transcribe" for Mac does : you can imagine listening to a piece of music from your library, in slow motion like Transcribe does, with an assistance to transcribe what is played, and in the bottom of the screen, you can type the music you hear in a Finale-for-iPad score.
Hope this post will be heard, I'd be an early buyer of such product for iPad.
Kind regards,
Jonathan.
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polarbreeze
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 2/28/2010 12:14 AM (GMT -5) | | A version for iPad is a Great Idea, and also makes lots of sense commercially for MakeMusic. The naysayers are extremely short-sighted if you don't mind me saying so - the iPad is the first time that tablet computing has become practical and affordable for the performing musician. This is a major step forward and those who pretend it's only suitable as a "toy" are completely missing the point.
Don't think of iPad as an alternative platform for Finale - think of it as a viewer/reader for Finale. It would be hugely valuable, and a leap ahead of competitors, to be able to use iPad in live performance to view Finale files. Why not just use pdf, you ask? The reason is that the viewer/reader gains much more value if it can perform certain basic editing tasks, including transposition and small ad-hoc edits of notes and chords, but nothing more than that - similar idea to "Finale Notepad". This would expand the reach of the Finale format without in any way competing with the mainstream Finale on the Mac/Windows platforms.
For those who doubt the wisdom of letting iTunes Store be the distribution channel for the iPad version - what possible downside is there to that? It's a perfectly good distribution channel, and it operates very well for serious, high-priced apps - TomTom GPS is a good example. In fact, the iTunes Store is an IDEAL distribution channel because apps delivered to the platform that way are UNPIRATABLE. MakeMusic should be delighted to have such a secure channel and at minimal cost to them. Those who think the iTunes Store is suitable only for $0.99 apps are, again, completely missing the point about this medium. | | Back to Top | |
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods
Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628
| Posted 3/1/2010 4:28 AM (GMT -5) | | I agree that the iPad is an exciting device with lots of potential. I also agree that it would be lovely if MakeMusic created a product for it.
However, I also want flying cars. And ponies.
MakeMusic would have to write this new software from scratch. Finale as its stands uses loads of ancient code, most of which wouldn't work on the new platform. MM would also have to come up with a new interface strategy to handle the lack of keyboard.
If MM is going to rewrite Finale, then let them rewrite it so that it works well on Windows 7 and Snow Leopard, so that Finale supports Unicode, multi-threading, multi-cores, 64-bit, and all the new technologies in these modern OSes that it has so far seemingly ignored.
Finale 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.1
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk | | Back to Top | |
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dgatwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2010
Total Posts : 10
| Posted 3/20/2010 9:19 PM (GMT -5) | | I couldn't disagree more about making a mere reader. I can print to PDF and have a reasonable Finale reader without spending a dime. Even adding the ability to follow your performance and turn pages isn't that useful unless you do a *lot* of performing of your own compositions or are willing to spend lots of time keying in other people's compositions.
IMHO, there's little real advantage to Finale for iPad unless it can also be used to edit music. Having a version of Finale for iPad (ideally as a cheap or free add-on for people who already own Finale rather than as a separate piece of software unto itself) would be a really great solution for taking music with you and tweaking it on the go. When you get back home, you would sync the files back to your home machine, and keep working. You might even integrate with back-to-my-Mac or something similar so that you'd always have everything with you without having to take it with you....
I also disagree with the assertion that Finale is mainly useful in a MIDI environment. I've used Finale with MIDI keyboards, and yes, if I'm just playing in a piece of existing sheet music because I need to transpose it or something, MIDI makes it easier, but for heavy duty composition with dozens of staves, MIDI might help a little when keying in each measure, but not enough to make it worth tying myself to a desk. With the right gestures and controls, you could design a touch interface for Finale that's a *lot* easier to use for composition than a computer.
As for Finale using a bunch of old APIs, I suspect that's mostly UI code, which you'd have to throw away and rewrite when porting to iPhone anyway. I assume that the core code is mostly shared between Windows and Mac OS X, with only a few minor hooks into the OS for reading and writing files, allocating memory, etc. If so, the adding an iPhone port is just a matter of rewriting those few core bits to use Foundation, Core Foundation, or POSIX code (which they should ideally do anyway) instead of Carbon calls, then writing a new UI layer on top of the existing core code. Not that this is simple, by any means, but it should be no harder for an app like Finale than it would be for any other app of similar complexity.Post Edited (dgatwood) : 3/20/2010 8:27:21 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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itsallinallston
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2010
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 4/13/2010 2:59 AM (GMT -5) | | | I don't care how much code has to be re-written-Finale (or Sibelius) will be available for iPad within the next five years, as all Macs are going to the the "touch- screen" format anyway. Just a matter of time. | | Back to Top | |
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JohnTheBaton
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 4/16/2010 12:22 PM (GMT -5) | | What if the iPad were used as an input accessory to the existing desktop/laptop software to replace the qwerty and/or midi keyboards?
This would take advantage of the strengths of each device; the iPad would provide the touch interface and context-sensitive keyboard, while the desktop/laptop would provide the screen real estate and processing power for serious work. This wouldn't just be a gimmick, or a workaround until a larger iPad becomes available; rather, it could potentially revolutionize music notation input. And I would think it would be far simpler and cheaper to program than an entire code rewrite, since it would require little more than mapping out keyboard shortcuts.
Using a qwerty keyboard for music notation requires a tremendous amount of arcane keystrokes that must be memorized, and mouse input requires constant scrolling back and forth between the staff and the entry palettes. With the iPad, you would finally have the ability to create a wholly new music notation interface, where the virtual buttons have direct musical meaning. You'd have the space to display all of the entry palette buttons at once (note durations, articulations etc). Plus it would be more visually inspiring; I would love to press a button that looks like a grace note instead of pressing a semicolon.
Of course, the holy grail would be the ability to directly manipulate items on the staff. This would be difficult on the iPad due to the relatively small screen. But again, here is where using both iPad and desktop/laptop could really work well together. One idea would be to have a single, enlarged 'input staff' displayed across the top of the iPad screen; it would need to be large enough that you can touch individual lines and spaces for entering pitches. This input staff would correspond to whatever staff has been selected on the desktop/laptop screen. So, you would click on a staff on the computer, and its contents would appear on the iPad's larger input staff for direct manipulation. From there, all interaction would take place on the iPad; you would press the virtual note duration button, accidental button, articulation button, etc. and then touch the line or space in the input staff to enter that note. Or you could simply drag these items over an existing note to modify them. All of this would instantly appear on the desktop/laptop screen.
If MakeMusic is not interested in developing this, at a minimum a third party developer could create a virtual keyboard app without needing access to software code. Get the iPad to connect to a desktop/laptop via bluetooth, and have Finale recognize the iPad as a bluetooth keyboard. Then, simply create an iPad app with virtual buttons that correspond to keyboard shortcuts. For example, on the iPad, you would touch a button that says "layer 2," and the iPad would send Finale the 'opt-cmd-2' shortcut. Or, go so far as to create an input staff interface, and map this to keyboard strokes. So pressing the first space on a treble clef input staff on the iPad would automatically select the simple entry tool and send the keyboard stroke F. Pressing the staccato button and touching that note on the iPad would select the articulation tool and send the keyboard shortcut 'cmd-s' for staccato. Even this more rudimentary approach would provide a faster, more intuitive input than a qwerty keyboard and mouse, without needing to modify a single line of Finale's code!
One final thought. Years ago I used to use a DOS-based music notation software called Music Manuscriptor. What made it unique was that it used a graphics tablet with a music notation overlay for input instead of a keyboard. The company has been out of business since the 90s, but to this day that tablet was the fastest input method I've ever used. Here is a photo I took of the setup; Imagine what an iPad could do to improve upon this!Post Edited (JohnTheBaton) : 4/16/2010 12:04:16 PM (GMT-5)
Image Attachment :
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 4/16/2010 3:19 PM (GMT -5) | |
JohnTheBaton said...
...So pressing the first space on a treble clef input staff on the iPad would automatically select the simple entry tool and send the keyboard stroke F. Pressing the staccato button and touching that note on the iPad would select the articulation tool and send the keyboard shortcut 'cmd-s' for staccato. Even this more rudimentary approach would provide a faster, more intuitive input than a qwerty keyboard and mouse, without needing to modify a single line of Finale's code!
I love the naïvete... do you realize that singling out a note head on a touch screen would probably require you to be at 200%-400% magnification just to get in the ballpark of being in the right place (particularly with active music or traditional 'tight' music spacing)? How awkward and inefficient would it be going through a score one giant measure at a time when a traditional keyboard+mouse combo is so much easier? Drag-applying articulations, expressions, etc. is so much more useful and efficient.
I know people want to justify their toys, but, come on, really? The iPad isn't much more than a portable web surfer/magazine-type document viewer (and eventually, of course they will develop simple games for it). As for using as a music reader, it guess would be fine you're just studying music, but it's far too small to be useful on a stand. I mean, everyone here on the forum pooh-poohs 8.5"x11" paper, calling it "pedestrian", and an iPad is even smaller than that.
Honestly, the only use I could ever see (for myself) for an iPad is as a doc viewer... like, for the Finale Help File. But for me, it's far too expensive for me to blow money on what basically amounts to a toy. I have an iTouch and it's frankly underwhelming.
And what's with the single-digit post count people coming out of the woodwork on this?? Faux demand creators?
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zsIf the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read | | Back to Top | |
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dgatwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2010
Total Posts : 10
| Posted 5/10/2010 3:54 AM (GMT -5) | | Flint said...
I love the naïvete... do you realize that singling out a note head on a touch screen would probably require you to be at 200%-400% magnification just to get in the ballpark of being in the right place (particularly with active music or traditional 'tight' music spacing)? How awkward and inefficient would it be going through a score one giant measure at a time when a traditional keyboard+mouse combo is so much easier? Drag-applying articulations, expressions, etc. is so much more useful and efficient.
I think the point is to have a way to make minor edits to things while traveling, with most of your editing and creation done on a full computer when you're not traveling. You're probably not going to compose a symphony on it, but it would be useless if it couldn't at least open a file containing a symphony and allow you to correct a wrong note in the thirtieth staff.
And, of course, any software along those lines would have to be compatible with one of the major desktop suites (meaning Finale or Sibelius). Without such compatibility, you'd have to go through MusicXML, and it would be a rather lossy operation every time you moved the file from your computer to the iPad and back. That's just no good.
As for an editing experience, it's not that hard, really. I would envision an interface like Safari: two taps brings a measure full-screen for editing, two taps zooms back out to where you were before.
Once you're looking at the measure you want to edit, you should have plenty of pointing accuracy to hit a single note. And when you touch to add a note, you could have a set of note length controls next to it that you can tap with another finger to change durations quickly.
Need a rest? Tap the note length twice before releasing the first finger. Tap it a third time if you goofed up and it would switch back to inserting a note. Need to move a note up or down? Drag it up and down the staff with your finger.
Articulations? Keep a floating palette in the corner of your screen with commonly-used articulations. Tap it, then tap the note you want to apply it to. Boom. Then drag it around as needed for formatting purposes.
And the best part is smart shapes. Want a slur? Choose the slur tool, then draw it with your finger. Use the path information provided by the touch action to set reasonable position markers for the slur so that you don't have to go back and tweak the height for every possible way the slur could get split across multiple staves as you currently do with the desktop version.
It's really not that hard to come up with a decent UI for music editing on iPad. Multi-touch allows you to create some rather cool controls if you're willing to take the time to think through them and design custom controls for your purposes.
Flint said...
And what's with the single-digit post count people coming out of the woodwork on this?? Faux demand creators?
At least in my case, I don't come to the forums regularly because I rarely have a problem that I can't find a solution for on my own. I'm posting in this thread because Finale is a must-have app for me when traveling, and an iPad is a much nicer form factor for airplane tray tables. :) | | Back to Top | |
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Spankypdx
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2002
Total Posts : 18
| Posted 5/12/2010 12:52 PM (GMT -5) | | Far from being a "mere toy" as some have noted; the iPad could be a useful tool for musicians on the road if the software would exist to facilitate that. I don't yet own an iPad, because as of now, other than the "cool factor" there really isn't any reason for me to justify it; however if there was a decent notation software program out there I would gladly buy one and use it.
I'm a working musician, I regularly travel all over. Most times I don't bring my entire band with me, instead I'll bring a book of charts and hire local players in whatever town I'm in. I usually bring my MacBook, when I get to where I'm going I'll connect to a printer and print the charts for that night's gig, saving me the need to shlep a suitcase full of paper through the airport. Given the ever-increasing baggage restrictions on airlines (some airlines are now even charging extra for carry-ons) I'm forever continuing to look for ways to lighten my load. Currently, when I do work on a score while on the road, I use my MacBook and a Korg NanoKey usb keyboard. Last year at this time I was using an M-Audio Oxygen8 with a double-wide backpack-size laptop bag to hold it all, now I can fit the MacBook and NanoKey into a standard-size laptop briefcase, which is an improvement. Still, including my horn, that's 2 carry-ons; If I bring any clothes or other necessities they need to be packed into a 3rd bag which must be checked. Even for simple weekend-out-of-town gigs I need to pay an extra $25 each time I check my garment bag with 1 suit of clothes. I'd save money (and a lot of extra time and hassle) if I could just walk on the plane with my horn, my clothes, and an iPad tucked into the pocket of my garment bag.
Unfortunately, a decent notation-software app doesn't exist for the iPad. If it did, I would buy it. I'm betting I'm not the only one.
Attention all Finale developers: The reality of the situation is this: Tablets such as the iPad are the future. If you start working on it now, you might beat your nearest competitor (Sibelius) to market with something people will buy. Otherwise, you'll lose a huge share of that market. | | Back to Top | |
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kristyjo
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 8/22/2010 12:17 AM (GMT -5) | | I think this is a project worthy of pursuing. I'm one of the many people between read-only and symphony composer. I currently use 'note-flight' with my elementary students, and we write music on a smart-board, using drag and drop with flash , thus giving us immediate visual and aural feedback. I can't use it with ipad because of the flash component, but I think that a drag & drop music writing program from Finale would be a great business move, (as well as a really good reason for me to spend $500.00 on an iPad, which I could then use for other things.) I would be willing to pay $20.00 for a 'read and play' version, more for more features. Perhaps a read and play for iPad could be included with the frankly overpriced upgrades of finale until a more robust version for iPad could be developed. I honestly believe that whichever major notation program developer can move in this direction in the most smooth, integrated way will have a huge advantage as computers move to touchscreens. I even think that, while i might not use an iPad for anything complex, it sure would be nice to have a simple tablet interface to put ideas on, or work on single lines, or transpose music from flute to clarinet, or test and listen to alternate chord changes. I don't use keyboard for most of my arranging. I compose and arrange 'in my head' and then write it out, and then listen to make sure it sounds like it should. (of course, I started out my college years making money by transposing music down a minor third for local women's groups and writing it out manually for the pianist.)
I can imagine many other people in music education would also appreciate the ability to integrate a portable writing tool into the Finale/ Smart Music family. It seems like this would be a great project. | | Back to Top | |
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Brent Mills
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2007
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 9/13/2010 12:47 PM (GMT -5) | | I have been using my iPad for music purposes for about 3 months now. My primary gig is as a musical director for a large church, but I write a lot of arrangements for ensembles in Finale and use them outside of church as well. There are several good sheet music applications for iPad, and I have found them helpful. I had to play an outdoor wedding last week and having the iPad was by far the best musical experience imagineable - no flying pages in the wind, all the music in one spot, and quick easy page turns from song to song. I found a stand that allows it to sit very close to me on the keyboard - works great. There is also a mic stand attachment for it and a bluetooth wireless foot pedal for hands-free page turning.
Please do not think that the iPad is a poor substitute for sheet music ... apps are in the works where a conductor or musical director could call up a score on an iPad or laptop from the front of an ensemble, and each part would immediately appear on the stand of every player in the orchestra. If the conductor wanted to transpose, each part would do so and stay in the proper key. Handwritten annotations are saved from one performance to the next and you can even call up the annotations of another player (say for example, you are subbing for someone and they marked up their part - you could instantly have access to that).
I am also using the iPad as a wireless MIDI input device with Finale. I have used MIDI keyboards with Finale since version 2.6.3, but this is the best experience ever. It works best with Speedy Entry, but there are some advantages to having the iPad sit on the desk next to you to input MIDI data, instead of having to use a separate MIDI keyboard. Plus, you can work wherever you want to, completely on battery.
Some links to the technologies I've mentioned ... I would HIGHLY support a "lite" version of Finale for iPad that would allow users to open files, transpose, make simple edits, and display the pages for live performance. Even if it was not a version that allowed document creation (or with limited capability), it would be very nice to eliminate the step of converting everything to PDFs. I currently have over 4,000 PDF sheet music files on my iPad, but they are still static documents - I can't edit, transposed or modify them on the fly. That feature alone would be great.
http://blog.ministrycentered.com/2010/05/04/introducing-planning-center-online-music-stand/
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pdf-sheet-music-reader/id370142351?mt=8
http://blog.ministrycentered.com/2010/08/25/pre-ordering-for-ipad-clip-now-available/
http://moocowmusic.com/PianistPro/index.html | | Back to Top | |
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