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Magnus Murel
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   Posted 3/27/2011 5:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am wondering if there is a place to download more/better fonts or document libraries to work with Finale 2011.

Tnx
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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 3/27/2011 6:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By fonts do you mean music fonts? There are quite a few on this page, and you can search for more. It depends a lot on whether you're looking for an alternative music font, or some kind of specialty font, such as for Baroque music.

Bill

http://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/Finale2011win/Content/Finale/Alternative_music_fonts.htm


Finale 2011c (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil
OS 10.6.7

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 3/27/2011 6:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Take a look here (scroll down):

www.rpmseattle.com/coda/

What are you looking for that the Finale fonts don't do or don't do well?

N.


Finale 2010b
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.4

The sonatas of Mozart are unique: too easy for children, too difficult for adults. Children are given Mozart to play because of the quantity of notes; grown-ups avoid him because of the quality of notes.

- pianist Artur Schnabel

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Wess
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   Posted 3/27/2011 7:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear Magnus Murel,

Welkome to the forum!

I can understand your need to find some other fonts.
Those, provided by MM are with very hard edges and look extremely unnatural when you compare to hand-engraved score, known as "Stich und Druck" (German).
Many publishers developed their own fonts, however most of them use also the conventional Maestro, Engraver, even the poor Petrucci.

The solution is rather simple – if you do not accept MM fonts like me – just create your own music font by scanning old scores and tracing the images which you like most to create the glyphs.

Here some samples.
Sorry, but there is a limitation of 3 files as an attachment, o I could not show you more, but this I think is sufficiently enough to get what is my idea.
The dark blue symbols are scanned and modified images as a part of my primary font, which I use almost permanently.

Best regards,
Wess


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)

Post Edited (wess-music) : 3/27/2011 7:48:12 PM (GMT-5)


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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 3/27/2011 7:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
wess-music said...

Those, provided by MM are with very hard edges and look extremely unnatural when you compare to hand-engraved score, known as "Stich und Druck" (German).


The "November" font was developed to have a "less severe" look. It's in the link I posted above.

N.


Finale 2010b
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.4

The sonatas of Mozart are unique: too easy for children, too difficult for adults. Children are given Mozart to play because of the quantity of notes; grown-ups avoid him because of the quality of notes.

- pianist Artur Schnabel

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Wess
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   Posted 3/27/2011 8:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some score samples with this font.


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)


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Wess
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   Posted 3/27/2011 8:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi N. Grossingink,

endeed, November was maybe the first public one, though for example, Schott Music had its own many years before, but only for their production.
Just to be certainly correct, they use some custom graphical library specially provided for "Score 3" (later version 4) and in 2001 came the developed "Schott Music Standard"TTF font known with its smooth edges.
during the years the name of the font changed twice.

The chinks in November are very few, but the main one is the "p" (piano dynamic symbol), some rather thin shapes in flat and sharp and in opposite side – very fat (bold) G-clef etc.
Those are negligible issues, nonetheless.
"November" is very "delicate" and "warm" looking one. I like it too.

Best regards,
Wess


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)

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David Ward
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   Posted 3/28/2011 3:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wess, are you preparing a new edition of Salome? I ask because the Boosey & Hawkes score I have is not comfortable for my elderly eyes. I notice that you are beaming the vocal parts according to the beats - is that now standard with new editions of scores which were not originally notated in this way? I beam vocal parts according to the beats in my own pieces, except in free recitative, but I am so used to reading beaming according to the syllables that I find both styles equally easy to read. I notice that you've included the up-beat bar in the bar numbering - is that quite standard in new editions?


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2010b
Mac 10.6.6
full TGTools

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 3/28/2011 4:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
November is very nice, and I would consider using it if it weren't so expensive. €92 for a font?

If it were half that price I would buy it. But it's about 3 times more expensive than any other commercial font.


Finale 2011c, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.6
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 3/28/2011 6:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
wess, what is the font you show here?
And what software do you use?
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Magnus Murel
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   Posted 3/28/2011 10:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for all the feedback, especially wess, I really liked the font you posted. Do I need more samples to make it work?

Tnx
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Wess
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   Posted 3/28/2011 11:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
@ OCTOECHOS

The font is custom OTF. (Post script)
open Type – because is for PC and Mac
Win encoding is "Windows Symbols" + "MacRoman".
Based on old engraving (all of them printed in Germany till late 60s.) and custom graphic libraries which belongs to a third party I work with.

The software for creating the font are:
Adobe Illustrator as a part of CS4 for tracing the scanned images and "Font Lab Studio 5" for Mac. (For PC is the same.)
All symbols ware scanned with high resolution 3200 DPI for best tracing.

Step by step:
Check your piano music in your library.
Find a clear printed copy.
Make a list with all needed symbols (note heads, rests, flags, articulations, dynamics, etc.)
At least you have to find more than 3 events for the same symbol that look "almost" equal as a size and angle.
When you start scanning do scan also little part of the staff. This is needed for scaling and EPS export.
Use only B&W duoton option in Adobe PS when scanning. The resolution must be as high as your scanner supports.
Import the image into Illustrator and trace the TIFF image with curves.
Close the pats and intersections, export it into Fontlab Studio or Fontographer and edit it.
It takes me more than 1 hour for single glyph... But it is worth it.


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)

Post Edited (wess-music) : 3/28/2011 12:42:54 PM (GMT-5)

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 3/28/2011 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi wess,

I applaud your work and thought in coming up with a nice traditional looking music font. Your samples look very nice indeed. But, please, do something about those tuplet numbers! I use New Century Schoolbook bold italic, which captures the traditional look, to one extent or another. Maybe you already had something else in mind…

N.


Finale 2010b
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.4

The sonatas of Mozart are unique: too easy for children, too difficult for adults. Children are given Mozart to play because of the quantity of notes; grown-ups avoid him because of the quality of notes.

- pianist Artur Schnabel

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Wess
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   Posted 3/28/2011 12:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear N. Grossingink,

thank you for your critic. I highly appreciate your positive idea.

So far I can not change the tuplet font, dough I can not agree more with you, because there is a publisher involved with its own standards...
However, I will try to discus this subject again.
New Century Schoolbook is used for the text. That is the truth, why not for the tuplets !?

Best regards,
Wess


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 3/28/2011 1:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wess,

I'm curious: in a place like "de-ren Füsse weisse Tau-ben sind" did you omit the hyphens in Füs-se and weis-se, or is the spacing so tight that they disappeared? I agree with others that you've done a very fine job of font design and layout.

Seeing this page brought back memories. "Spear carrier" is a figure of speech for someone who has an unimportant role in an opera, but once long ago I did that for real in a production of "Salome". I was dressed in a loin cloth and stood beside Herod's throne holding a spear for the entire opera. I got to hear "Salome" about 20 times during that run.

Bill


Finale 2011c (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil
OS 10.6.7

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Wess
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   Posted 3/28/2011 1:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Bill,

the spacing is very tight indeed.
In the original score man can see the same thing. The publisher accepted this compromises, as well as many others – again involving the horizontal and vertical spacing.

Best regards,
Wess


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)

Post Edited (wess-music) : 3/28/2011 2:22:26 PM (GMT-5)

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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 3/28/2011 1:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The spacing is so tight in those scores I keep catching myself ducking.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 3/28/2011 1:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
The spacing is so tight in those scores I keep catching myself ducking.


It is tight indeed! My only urge upon seeing a score like this is to offer a sincere prayer of thanks that I don't have to deal with notation and layout like this on a regular basis, if at all.

Of course, there are always questions. What is the page size on which this file is constructed? What is the staff sizing and or system sizing? These might be restrictive.

For those wanting to see an example of "Extreme Music Engraving", no better example can be had than the full score of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring". The engraver(s) struggled mightily with this project and, with more than a few compromises, turned in a magnificent job. Take a look here, scroll down and click on "full score":

N.
imslp.org/wiki/The_Rite_of_Spring_%28Stravinsky,_Igor%29


Finale 2010b
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.4

The sonatas of Mozart are unique: too easy for children, too difficult for adults. Children are given Mozart to play because of the quantity of notes; grown-ups avoid him because of the quality of notes.

- pianist Artur Schnabel

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Wess
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   Posted 3/28/2011 2:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
N. Grossingink said...


Of course, there are always questions. What is the page size on which this file is constructed? What is the staff sizing and or system sizing? These might be restrictive.


Yes, that is the right question, dear colleague.
270*375mm. Suggested staff high was 5 mm, but usually 4 mm.


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)

Post Edited (wess-music) : 3/28/2011 2:23:13 PM (GMT-5)


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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 3/28/2011 5:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Fantastic wess-
You should leave some samples here:
forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&p=1&m=311544

And thank you for the explanation.

Personally, I do like so narrow staff lines, it is very typical for late German romantic music.


...................
Finale 2011c, OS X 10.6.6 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

Post Edited (OCTOECHOS) : 3/28/2011 5:59:33 PM (GMT-5)

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Ansgar Krause
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   Posted 3/29/2011 1:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wess, big compliment for this, besides the font issues especially the vertical spacing is perfect. Did you edit the long slurs manually? If not, please tell us the numbers you specified for medium and long slurs.
But there are two things that still could be improved - in my opinion.
The syllable "kommt," at the end of the first bar should be left aligned, maybe the current position is responsible forthe strange spacing in this bar?
And second, the 2nd bar has a strange spacing. Is the double whole note in Hr 1/2 responsible for this? If yes, then this would show one of Finale's spacing anomalies.


Ansgar Krause

MacBook Pro 15", OSX 10.5.8 • Finale since 2.6.3

Fonts: http://home.arcor.de/ansgarkrause/finalfonts.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-USGFEyUmY

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 3/29/2011 2:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wess-
two questions:
1. how do you get such a flat slur? It is impossible in my Finale....! I cannot get such a long but flat slur. It is always bend.
2. in "sehr klangvoll" and b-flat accidental - are they enclosures even b-flat - as expression tool? I can't get graphic file to "feel" the layers.

Best


...................
Finale 2011c, OS X 10.6.7 OS X 10.5.8 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

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Wess
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   Posted 3/29/2011 4:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lieber Ansgar,
Dear OCTOECHOS,

@Ansgar Krause: the allotment of first 3 bars includes many other staves (some of them like 1-st violins are playing "div. à 3" on a single staff). (see the attachment)
@OCTOECHOS - b-flat is "covered" with white mask (expression shape). On Finale 2008 this trick works, however on 2009 and later does not!

The flat slur...
Long time ago Sibelius has such or similar option to connect 2 slurs in a single shape.
I needed not only long slur, but such that I can manage the ends of it .
Initially I developed a font with "1/2 slur" then extension line and the second 1/2 (end) slur.
That was difficult to manage in real work. The needed shapes turned out to be almost infinite number.
Imagine you have to do some additional spacing – again recreating the combinations of start 1/2 slur, end 1/2 slur and the length in between.
In this picture the "flat slur" is combination of 4 smart shapes: 2 slurs as a start and end slur + 2 single (thin) lines.

Here the attached samples
1. Allotment (@Ansgar)
2. Components of a flat slur.
3. The poor alternative.


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)


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Wess
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   Posted 3/29/2011 4:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The final result.


Finale 2.0 - 2011
Mac Pro 2.66, 16 GB DDR3 ECC (2009),
Macbook pro 2.80 (2009)


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Ansgar Krause
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   Posted 3/29/2011 4:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lieber Wess,

congratulations for your creative idea, but nevertheless MakeMusic should find an easier way!
And many thanks for sharing your workflow with us.
My little contribution is:
It is not completely impossible to mask items in newer versions of Finale, but it is more difficult now, they should change that as well.
Concerning my attachments:
It is important where the shape is attached to (preceding bar) and the shapes (slurs as well) have to be measure-items.


Ansgar Krause

MacBook Pro 15", OSX 10.5.8 • Finale since 2.6.3

Fonts: http://home.arcor.de/ansgarkrause/finalfonts.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-USGFEyUmY

Post Edited (Ansgar Krause) : 3/29/2011 5:00:42 AM (GMT-5)


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