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digitalmusicart
Specialist Guitar Engravers



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   Posted 7/6/2011 6:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Months ago, I reported two separate issues that were affecting EPS files. I'm saddened to see that these have not been addressed in any maintenance releases. I write this post as a both a "reminder" to the Finale team, but also as a report to others who may not have know about these issues, or seen these issues and were unaware of what was causing them.

ISSUE 1: Break Tablature Lines At Numbers

If you open a Finale 2011 EPS file that uses this functionality in Adobe Illustrator instead of the white rectangles that used to be used to obscure the tablature lines behind numbers, you find only a single "point" where the box is supposed to be. To all intents and purposes this stops further processing of the files in EPS format for me.

ISSUE 2: Redundant Tracking on the final item in a group in EPS files

This may well be affecting many people who are trying to use EPS files in page layout applications such as Adobe InDesign. Basically, tracking is used in Finale EPS generation to space elements such as lyrics and chords. This appears to work well except in one case - tracking of the final item in any group should always be set to zero, after all, when you add tracking to an element it simply pushes the NEXT element further to the right (or left in the case of negative tracking). However, in Finale 2011 the last element in a group often retains the tracking of the previous element. If the last element in group is near the right edge of the page then the "tracking" can extend beyond the edge of the page, and page layout programs such as InDesign interpret this just like any other element. The problem with this is that this changes how pages sizes (and consequently, placement issues) are calculated. Things like finder previews also show inconsistent width, and Apple's own "Preview" application gets the page sizes confused too.

I include an annotated screen capture that highlights both of these issues. [edit: sadly the screengrab doesn't show the dots above and to the left of the tab numbers, finale tech just try it and open an EPS in illustrator to see what I mean!]


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
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Post Edited (digitalmusicart) : 7/6/2011 5:37:23 PM (GMT-5)


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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 7/7/2011 3:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
digitalmusicart said...
finale tech just try it and open an EPS in illustrator to see what I mean!]

Have you actually reported this to MakeMusic? Posting here does not count as informing MM.

You have to submit a technical support request directly on their website.


Finale 2011c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.6
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digitalmusicart
Specialist Guitar Engravers



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   Posted 7/7/2011 4:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, it's been reported correctly.


Simon Troup
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If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 7/7/2011 7:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm working on a book of guitar arrangements and I just sent EPS files to my layout person to put into In Design. He sent me back PDF's of the pages and they have the same problem with the missing tab number knock-outs that you described in Illustrator.

Bill


Finale 2011c (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil
OS 10.6.8

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digitalmusicart
Specialist Guitar Engravers



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   Posted 7/7/2011 10:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for confirming the issue Bill, much appreciated. Yeah it's a massive problem for professional guitar engraving. Trying to recreate those boxes in anyway is so time consuming, it needs to be fixed.


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
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If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Erik Hagner
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   Posted 7/8/2011 5:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have exactly the same problem – in 2010b. In 2007 there was no such problem. I really hope this gets fixed soon ...


Erik Hagner
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OS 10.5.8
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 7/8/2011 6:00 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you are using EPS files as graphics within InDesign, then there should be no problem to use PDFs instead.

Create a PDF of the page in the usual way. I think I'm right that the problem does not appear when printing or saving a PDF?

InDesign can import PDFs as graphics in exactly the same way as EPS files, and their function is pretty much identical. Any workflow that involves EPS files should be able to use PDF files with no or few changes. (PDF being "a form of" Postscript.)

If there is some reason why EPS files are essential (which I can't think of), then you could convert the PDFs into EPS files using Acrobat or Illustrator (automatically).


Finale 2011c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.6
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
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Erik Hagner
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   Posted 7/8/2011 7:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks Wiggy, but my publisher only takes EPS-files for reasons I'm not aware of. But since Finale offers the opportunity to export EPS-files this bug should have been fixed - or it shouldn't have been implemented in 2009 :-)


Erik Hagner
MacBook5,1
OS 10.5.8
Finale 2010b

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 7/8/2011 7:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Erik Hagner said...
Thanks Wiggy, but my publisher only takes EPS-files for reasons I'm not aware of.

I would certainly ask what those reasons are. (Are you sure it's not just EPS as opposed to TIFFs?**)

I appreciate that in an ideal world, Finale should make accurate EPSes, but if your publisher is keen on getting trouble-free vector files, then PDFs offer an easy mechanism.

As I say, if they absolutely insist that PDFs are incapable of being used in the same way as EPSes, then you can easily convert PDF files to EPSes in Acrobat or Illustrator. This process could be automated, perhaps using a Folder Action so that any PDF dropped into a folder gets converted to EPS automatically.

**I am often surprised how many people simply follow a specification without knowing anything about why it is specified. I was once asked by someone who claimed to work in Print Production for an advertising agency if I could "convert these JPEGs to Photoshop files, so that the web team can open them in Photoshop". So I charged for the conversion. But I digress....


Finale 2011c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.6
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Ancient Groove Music
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Erik Hagner
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   Posted 7/8/2011 8:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...
Are you sure it's not just EPS as opposed to TIFFs?**


Yes, I'm positive. The company used EPS from the beginning of time – then PDF's for a couple of years in 2008, but now again EPS ...

Wiggy said...
I am often surprised how many people simply follow a specification without knowing anything about why it is specified.


You're right ...


Erik Hagner
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digitalmusicart
Specialist Guitar Engravers



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   Posted 7/8/2011 9:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The important thing to bear in mind here is that opening files in illustrator enables the files to be edited at EPS level, which means that all manner of more advanced technical illustrations can be created.


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
United Kingdom

http://www.digitalmusicart.com
If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 7/8/2011 9:53 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
digitalmusicart said...
The important thing to bear in mind here is that opening files in illustrator enables the files to be edited at EPS level, which means that all manner of more advanced technical illustrations can be created.

You can open PDFs from Finale in Illustrator and edit them in exactly the same way.


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Count of Monte Verdi
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   Posted 7/8/2011 10:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...

**I am often surprised how many people simply follow a specification without knowing anything about why it is specified. I was once asked by someone who claimed to work in Print Production for an advertising agency if I could "convert these JPEGs to Photoshop files, so that the web team can open them in Photoshop". So I charged for the conversion. But I digress....


You were absolutely right to charge for the conversion. I was often flabbergasted by seeing the itemizations of what professional services charge in other fields. However, I see it more of a problem (even as I am not so much in engraving and sheet music sales) that it is increasingly hard to charge anything at all in the music publishing field (anybody remember the Rachmaninov in the free download section and how bitterly some publishers fought it?).
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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 7/8/2011 10:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. It is a very timely issue for me, and your observations and suggestions are going to be a great help in getting files to my publisher for a book of guitar arrangements.

I submitted a case to MM and they gave the standard response that the bug has been given to developers and there is not presently a solution.

Bill


Finale 2011c (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil
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digitalmusicart
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   Posted 7/8/2011 10:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...
digitalmusicart said...
The important thing to bear in mind here is that opening files in illustrator enables the files to be edited at EPS level, which means that all manner of more advanced technical illustrations can be created.

You can open PDFs from Finale in Illustrator and edit them in exactly the same way.


We could just get the stupid bug fixed regardless of your preferred file format Wiggy.

I haven't seen a way of exporting individual pages as separate PDF files, which makes it slower for loading the pages into InDesign. If I want to make edits in Illustrator, I have to faff about to resave to multipage PDF, or further process to separate. Given that Finale should just fix this export issue because it's clearly broken, I see no reason to move to PDF other than to work around this long standing bug which is clearly affecting more people than just myself.


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
United Kingdom

http://www.digitalmusicart.com
If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 7/8/2011 11:07 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
digitalmusicart said...
We could just get the stupid bug fixed regardless of your preferred file format Wiggy.

Obviously, it would be better to get the bug fixed. However, until that happy day, people might be interested in a way of achieving their ultimate goal with the minimum of fuss.

The only format I favour is the one that works best for the job. If PDF was broken, I might suggest EPS.

You can save a selected page of a PDF by specifying the page range in the print menu. Or you can use Acrobat to split a PDF into separate documents. As I have also said, there is much in these sort of workflows that can be automated.

digitalmusicart said...
I see no reason to move to PDF.

Bend like the willow, or snap like the oak. smilewinkgrin


Finale 2011c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.6
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digitalmusicart
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   Posted 7/8/2011 11:29 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
wiggy said...
If there is some reason why EPS files are essential (which I can't think of)...


wiggy said...
digitalmusicart said...
I see no reason to move to PDF.

Bend like the willow, or snap like the oak. smilewinkgrin


What I mean is, beyond longer workarounds for Finale's broken functionality, there is no need to reinvent my, or my publishers, workflows, especially when it contains further automation steps. By writing direct to EPS I have files that work perfectly in InDesign and Illustrator without the need to deal with all the import/export options. Given that there is no requirement for the whole "Portable" thing (I know exactly the environments that the files will be used in) all those "smarter" and "more advanced" options (according to Adobe) are completely irrelevant.

I'm surprised though, that individual PDF page export is not available as a graphic export option under GRAPHICS > EXPORT PAGE in Finale. That would cut out an entire step.

However, even if this were possible there's still no point to bother with PDF if you're only planning to use the files in InDesign.


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
United Kingdom

http://www.digitalmusicart.com
If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Post Edited (digitalmusicart) : 7/8/2011 10:38:36 AM (GMT-5)

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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 7/8/2011 11:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There are no "import/export" options required. You can just Save as a PDF, specifying a single page range. No different from the EPS export options process.
Single-page PDFs load into InDesign in exactly the same way as EPSes or any other graphic. No extra steps. But as I say, if you want to use EPS files, then you can convert a PDF file to EPS very easily.

I'm just trying to help by offering alternatives that solve the problem. If you prefer not to try these ideas, then feel free to carry on as you are.

What you propose might be a nice feature.


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digitalmusicart
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   Posted 7/8/2011 12:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Like you said, export to PDF from finale. open acrobat, open the file, extract pages. That's another program, more file open/save/close/delete original file stuff.

What I don't want is anyone to think there is a simple or fast alternative that means not fixing the bug can wait. Those extra steps can get very dull and very time consuming exceptionally quickly when you're dealing with large numbers of files. I know all about automation, my workflow includes illustrator applescripting, automator, php, quickeys, distiller and all manner of file syncing and status reporting software. Recreating this to work in a PDF based workflow would be very, very costly in time and testing, and for what? No improvement in quality, which is what it is the bottom line. If I didn't care about quality and only how long something took to knock out I might consider using sibelius.

The workaround tips are awesome if you've got a couple of files to do, what I want however (as the thread starter, I don't have any objection to discussing all of this stuff obviously, but I guess you can see what I was after from the topic title) is to get the damn bug fixed. You've no idea how frustrated I am that this has remained unresolved despite reporting it many, many months ago.

Speaking of automation, I don't recall seeing this excellent book mentioned on here before. Probably getting a bit out of date but enables some awesome batch EPS operations. This made me wonder if individual page PDF file export might be possible using Finalescript - must look into that if I get a moment.

[edited to fix broken URL]


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
United Kingdom

http://www.digitalmusicart.com
If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Post Edited (digitalmusicart) : 7/8/2011 11:26:23 AM (GMT-5)

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digitalmusicart
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   Posted 7/8/2011 12:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wow that felt like a lambasting post, wasn't meant to be, just trying to explain why I probably didn't appear appreciative of the excellent work around ideas.


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
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http://www.digitalmusicart.com
If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 7/8/2011 1:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
digitalmusicart said...
Like you said, export to PDF from finale. open Acrobat, open the file, extract pages. That's another program, more file open/save/close/delete original file stuff...

Actually, that is not what Wiggy said, but it could have been put more clearly:

Wiggy said...
...You can just Save as a PDF, specifying a single page range. No different from the EPS export options process...

What Wiggy said, means

1) Command-P to open the Print dialog box,

2) specify a single page range,

3) choose "Save as PDF..." in the PDF pop up menu.

You use a different dialog box (the Print dialog instead of the Graphics Tool's Export dialog), but the number of steps is no different.


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digitalmusicart
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   Posted 7/8/2011 1:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's even worse, that's 12 file dialogue operations to export a 12 page piece of music. Either that or export a multi-page file, and then have to deal with page handling when you place the files in InDesign. There's nothing I've seen like the automatic generation of multiple separate (single page) EPS files in a single operation through GRAPHICS > EXPORT PAGES > EPS > ALL.

I like files separately as this way all my subsequent edits are tracked in Subversion, so I can note what was changed and when and revert if need be. The single file multiple page document options is not very attractive to my workflow preference - not sure how it works for anyone else.


Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
United Kingdom

http://www.digitalmusicart.com
If you can twang it, we can engrave it!



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Finale 2011, Apple Mac Pro Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.8 GHz, 6 GB RAM, MacOSX 10.6.4, Focusrite Saffire LE.

Post Edited (digitalmusicart) : 7/8/2011 12:42:27 PM (GMT-5)

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Erik Hagner
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   Posted 7/8/2011 2:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I used to print to PDF's a lot. I used an apple script made by the member Bart Visser. It worked with F2007, so maybe it needs some changes in order to work with 2011. You could print folders of Finale files to single paged PDF's in one go.

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=149362


Erik Hagner
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