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Skjalg
Accordion man



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Date Joined Nov 2000
Total Posts : 927
 
   Posted 10/3/2011 3:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My, and other posters' point is: You look for changes that might be an improvement to your way of working, but probably not to the majority of Finale users, I guess. Different users experience different issues with Finale. My issue is the lack of grace note spacing in linked voiced parts, your main issue is about music input. I do not say that Finale's main construction and and input interface is perfect, but it seems to suit most users just fine.

Why the measure/beam/time signature thing keeps coming back to you during this thread? Well, it kind of indicates a music notation software skill level where it might be wise to listen to the advice and opinions of some of the earlier posters, people who are true Finale masters and most valuable contributors to this forum.


Skjalg Bjørstad, Norway

_____________________________________________

Finale 3.0 > 2011c, Macbook, 4 gB 300 gB, GPO JABB, GPO full version, Oxygen 8v2, Yamaha CP33, Echo AudioFire2, PreSonus AudioBox USB

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Jesper Hendze
Registered Member

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Total Posts : 364
 
   Posted 10/3/2011 7:58 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
You can easily create a practically unlimited measure (to paraphrase Bill Gates, '100/1 should be long enough for any cadenza'), after which you could use Jari Williamsson's plugin which changes the time signature to fit the number of beats in it.


I have been looking for that plugin, but can't find it!
Sounds like the "JW Time Sig" plugin (quote: "This plug-in will analyze the music and automatically create the time signatures for it"), but that was discontinued long ago (Fin2003 for Mac).

Where is its successor, please?

Jesper


PowerMac Dual 2 GHz, 3 Gb RAM, OS X 10.4.11
Finale 2009 and all previous versions (although Finale 2.0 is the oldest present on HD)
Garritan Personal Orchestra
Garritan Jazz & Big Band
Garritan Concert & Marching Band
XSample Chamber Ensemble
MIDI: Interface: emagic MT4
Keyboard: Korg X5D/Roland D50
Ensoniq MR Rack with expansion card (percussion)

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michelp
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   Posted 10/3/2011 9:16 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jesper,

As far as I know, JW Time Sig has not been updated. It is still available here, though : www.jwmusic.nu/freeplugins/index.html. Although it is no supposed to be compatible with recent versions of Finale, I would give it a try, some people report it is still working. You don't risk trying...
JW Conceal barlines is available at Jari's website, in the Plug-ins section : www.finaletips.nu/index.php?option=com_sobi2&sobi2Task=sobi2Details&catid=3&sobi2Id=18&Itemid=8.

PS : keep an eye on Jari's Facebook page : www.facebook.com/jwpluginsforfinale


Michel
Finale 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, 2008b, MacOsX 10.7.1 (Lion), Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 8 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 5.5. Full TGTools. Midi interface : MOTU Midi Express XT. Roland Sound Canvas SC88-vl.

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Jari Williamsson
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Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246
 
   Posted 10/3/2011 9:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A ported Mac OSX version of JW Time Sig is available at Robert Patterson's place.


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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michelp
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   Posted 10/3/2011 11:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
www.robertgpatterson.com/-fininfo/finmain.html


Michel
Finale 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, 2008b, MacOsX 10.7.1 (Lion), Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 8 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 5.5. Full TGTools. Midi interface : MOTU Midi Express XT. Roland Sound Canvas SC88-vl.

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/3/2011 11:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What? No cadenza mapping tool? Dang, gotta use my brain again... LOL!


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 10/3/2011 11:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been using the plugin in 2011 with nary a problem. But maybe the old plugins only work on a PC. I can't say for Mac.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Vaughan
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Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
 
   Posted 10/3/2011 11:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
@Jesper: the plugins are still readily available and, while quite a few haven't been updated for years, they still work with Finale 2011. I just tried out the Time Signature plugin and it works fine. This attests to JW's solid programming! Here's a website where you can download it (and many other plugins): www.finaletips.nu/index.php?option=com_sobi2&catid=3&Itemid=8

jscomposer said...
Besides, writing and playback are 2 different things. Once you're done entering notes, Finale can easily see how many beats there are in the measure. So the meter numerator can be "infinite" or perhaps a better term would be "unspecified." This would allow you to enter music freely in one simple step, with correct beaming, barring and spacing.

@Joshua: you really have no idea, do you? You don't claim to want mind-reading software and yet you want to be able to set an unspecified meter numerator and then you expect Finale to know what the 'correct' beaming, barring and spacing should be. How is Finale supposed to make meaning out of your freely-entered musical rantings unless they closely adhere to simple conventions, in which case you could (and should) have determined the parameters beforehand. As has been pointed out, making cadenzas is as easy as pie and there are several ways of doing it. You seem to have decided that it's more difficult than it should be but you haven't considered the consequences of making a program which tries to double-guess the intentions of an extremely wide range of users with widely varying needs. I can guarantee you that neither MM nor Sibelius is going to spend time trying to cater to a single user who wants software to guess his intentions.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2011c, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 5 plugin
MacOS 10.7.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB
Kontakt 4.2

Amsterdam

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 10/3/2011 12:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Am I on Twitter?

2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, ... all have the same beaming and spacing, so that's not a very strong argument, unless the cadenza is in compound meter or Bulgarian rhythm.

jscomposer's thoughts are a bit half-baked, but he has a point that resorting to plug-ins, hiding time signatures and barlines, etc., is rather cumbersome. I can envision a meterless mode where you enter as many beats as you like and Finale adjusts its internal and undisplayed time signature as necessary. And a simple way to split such a measure either by selecting the latter half or perhaps a keystroke in Simple entry at the cursor point.

That said, it would be low priority for me on the list of improvements.


Finale 2011b, 2005b, TGTools
Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/3/2011 11:20:29 AM (GMT-5)

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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 10/3/2011 12:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not for cadenzas only, but a meterless mode would be nice for chant, plainsong, etc. Yes, there are ways to do it, but the question comes up often enough that a "one-step" method might be nice.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
Bass for What's Cookin' www.whatscookinvlq.com
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Still happily on Windows XP, SP3

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 10/3/2011 1:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think these are suggestions that fill a need, but may not be practical in some ways. I am not a programmer, but I will say Finale has enough spacing issues as it is, and it seems that a meterless function would complicate an already less than perfect feature. When you do a score by hand and want to write a cadenza, you merely write what you can where you can, without regard for meter. When a system fills up, you move to the next.

With Finale, you can assign a large time signature to a measure (say 100/4), and force that to a system, then repeat the process for as many systems as you need. When you get as much as will fit on a system, you move to the next. When you're done, apply the plugin to make each measure the meter associated with the number of beats that are actually there. That way spacing is better. You also then choose an invisible barline for the end of each measure (system as well) and choose to not count all but the first in measure numbering.

Now, for all the other parts, you choose to create a multimeasure rest for those measures and modify number to get rid of it (choose the method that works best for you) and put the text Cadenza over it. This can be customized to taste.

I don't find this extremely painful or unmanagable. or am I missing something obvious?

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 10/3/2011 1:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not extremely painful, but many steps and pretty convoluted, and something an average user is going to have trouble with. I hadn't even considered other parts, which is something else to have to deal with in a work-around way.


Finale 2011b, 2005b, TGTools
Windows XP

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 10/3/2011 4:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The way I look at it is that somebody has to be fairly advanced to even be at the point where they are entering a cadenza, in my estimation. If a pianist who can barely play the Minuet in G by Bach attempts to play Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto, he's way over his head. So, if someone is not well versed in the ins and outs of Finale, any complex type of music entry will be demanding on engraving skills. It just takes study and persistence. I suppose someone could invent a way of simplifying the process, but I don't see that it would take a re-write of the basic code, but maybe a plugin. Cadenzas are so different, each and every one, that the variables might be way more than one could predict.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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jscomposer
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   Posted 10/3/2011 7:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see a few people are starting to understand what I'm saying, including the fact that there's no mysterious mind-reading involved. :-)

To reiterate for the nay-sayers and ball-busters in the trenches, and for people just checking in... I never said meterless measures. I said infinite or unspecified meter NUMERATOR. It couldn't be simpler:

Select the meter tool and double-click a measure; move the "number of beats" slider all the way to the right (or left) till the meter looks like ?/4 (for example) and click OK; select Speedy Entry and knock yourself out; when you're done, Finale easily sees and specifies the number of beats, and expands the measure to accommodate the notes.

Think of it as an automated JW Time Sig plugin, but with the correct beaming, as you're able to specify the meter denominator (note duration) before you start. (The JW Time Sig plugin can yield strange fractions that result in sub-optimal beaming.)

If they wanted to be slick, they could even add an "unspecified number of beats" option to the Speedy Entry menu. That way, if you realize you made a mistake and need to add a note or two, you can toggle between specified and unspecified number of beats, so you don't have to open the meter tool window again. Come to think of it, with an option like that in the menu, you wouldn't even need to bother with the meter tool at all! Just select the Speedy Entry tool, click a measure, check "unlimited beats" and go to town! And/or a keyboard shortcut! cool

The other suggestion is simple enough: to be able to highlight segments of a measure and use the up and down arrows to move them to adjacent systems just like you would whole measures. The "allow horizontal split points" approach is cumbersome and dysfunctional, while the split measure plugin is tedious.


http://www.youtube.com/joshuasethcomposer

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/3/2011 8:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, you're making some sense now and I can see what you are asking for and understand precisely why you might want or need it. But realize that people who arrive at a place where they are about to notate a cadenza (or any music for serious engraving or notation) presumably already know precisely how many notes they need. As Mozart would say: No more; no less. Very few composers and arrangers don't have that information prior to setting a score down and that is where the suggestion falls on deaf ears. Those who want to (or for whatever reason - need to) work as you suggest are so far in the minority of general users of advanced software intended for that specific purpose, that the feature is not worth the effort for the software programmers to even consider. There are much bigger fish to fry in terms of getting these programs to do what they do as it is. At best, you might approach someone like Tobias to program a plugin for your specific need.

And seriously now, is counting out your notes all that difficult? It would appear you want to improvise your cadenza. Is that the case? If so, mark the score improvisational and have done with it. Otherwise, when you go to notate and perform your work - or better yet, hand it to a conductor and a major orchestra to perform, know that you are absolutely sure of exactly what it is you want to accomplish ahead of time. The tools you need are already in your possession. A cadenza is a codified solo or improvisational section, but it is a ultimately a notated section of music. All it takes is a little practice... and a lot of discipline.


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

Post Edited (Michael Mortilla) : 10/3/2011 8:20:43 PM (GMT-5)

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/3/2011 10:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jscomposer said...
Michael Mortilla said...
[img]abusive image removed[/img]


That's enough now.


reported to forum moderators for personal abuse


Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher

Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2011b
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010, 2011b
GPO 4, Garritan J&BB 3, CoMBand, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello
Xsample Chamber Ensemble
Win XP

join us on
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Michael Mortilla
Registered Member

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   Posted 10/3/2011 10:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...
jscomposer said...
Michael Mortilla said...
[img]abusive image removed[/img]


That's enough now.


reported to forum moderators for personal abuse


You too? Thanks, Michel. Hard to take this adolescent seriously at all now. lol


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 10/3/2011 10:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael Mortilla said...
OK, you're making some sense now and I can see what you are asking for and understand precisely why you might want or need it. But realize that people who arrive at a place where they are about to notate a cadenza (or any music for serious engraving or notation) presumably already know precisely how many notes they need. As Mozart would say: No more; no less. Very few composers and arrangers don't have that information prior to setting a score down and that is where the suggestion falls on deaf ears. Those who want to (or for whatever reason - need to) work as you suggest are so far in the minority of general users of advanced software intended for that specific purpose, that the feature is not worth the effort for the software programmers to even consider. There are much bigger fish to fry in terms of getting these programs to do what they do as it is. At best, you might approach someone like Tobias to program a plugin for your specific need.


I think this kind of program functioning is the reason so few composers use Finale as a composition tool at all. I often go back and make changes, sometimes while in the very process of notating it in Finale, and I have to remember what I did, and re-do it. It does get to be a bit of a pain, even though I know the procedure and am pretty comfortable with it.

Actually, one feature I would LOVE is for Finale to be able to take a pitch of unspecified length, but exactly in the start position I need, without filling the rest of bar with rests. I often compose this way, but because Finale won't let me do it on the computer, I still compose on paper. Even Cubase let me "paint" notes in piano-roll view, and go back later to set the lengths.

But before implementing this marvelous new feature, I would rather see the existing bugs fixed.


Christopher Smith

Mac 2 x 2 Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
OSX 10.6
Finale 2011b
or
Mac iBook G4 733 Mhz
OSX 10.4.11
Finale 2010b r.1

Post Edited (Christopher Smith) : 10/3/2011 9:46:01 PM (GMT-5)

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jscomposer
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   Posted 10/3/2011 10:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christopher Smith said...
I think this kind of program functioning is the reason so few composers use Finale as a composition tool at all. I often go back and make changes, sometimes while in the very process of notating it in Finale, and I have to remember what I did, and re-do it. It does get to be a bit of a pain, even though I know the procedure and am pretty comfortable with it.

Actually, one feature I would LOVE is for Finale to be able to take a pitch of unspecified length, but exactly in the start position I need, without filling the rest of bar with rests. I often compose this way, but because Finale won't let me do it on the computer, I still compose on paper. Even Cubase let me "paint" notes in piano-roll view, and go back later to set the lengths.

But before implementing this marvelous new feature, I would rather see the existing bugs fixed.


My suggestion of "infinite" or "unspecified" meter numerator (number of beats per measure) would achieve this end. ;-) You'd enter the note with whatever duration you want as your "place holder," and when you come back to it later, there'd be no extra rests. You'd just have to change the note duration if necessary and proceed freely.


http://www.youtube.com/joshuasethcomposer

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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 10/4/2011 9:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Guys,
Be sure you report this childish behavior via a PM to Justin, rather than just hitting the alert button. As we've been told with spam, the "alert" mailbox doesn't get checked as often as it should.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
Bass for What's Cookin' www.whatscookinvlq.com
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Still happily on Windows XP, SP3

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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jscomposer
Registered Member



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Total Posts : 40
 
   Posted 10/4/2011 12:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the tip, Mike. ;-) Maybe if they would've asked for clarification instead of cursing at me and going on the attack spewing falsehoods, they wouldn't have had to deal with a *gasp* innocuous picture!


http://www.youtube.com/joshuasethcomposer

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JustinP
Senior Product Manager

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   Posted 10/4/2011 1:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think we're a little off topic, and the discussion is getting less civil. Closed and let it go.


Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist
MakeMusic, Inc.
www.finalemusic.com/forum


These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly at makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask.

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