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BassTard777
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   Posted 3/30/2012 6:30 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...I've already posted this into the 'request' thread but thought this might be an interesting and important threat by itself... so film composers: you're very welcome to share your experiences and ideas!

Some really helpful features for professional film scoring that I am missing in Finale:

1. The possibility to create MARKERS (hit points - description text blocks) into the score. by entering them at the exact SMPTE timecode position! (in case you change the tempo, the time signature, or insert a bar - the markers stay at the exact position - locked to the SMPTE timecode).

2. Very often in professional film scoring we create a perfect tempo and time arrangement with marker informations in sync to the video in our sequencing software and export it as standard midi file (containing MARKERS, time signatures, tempo changes, etc...) and when it comes to notation/orchestration we simply import the standard MIDI file into Finale and finally we have all the time sigs, etc. in the score.. that works pretty well
and what we really love to see in FINALE 2013: to import the MARKERS (I know that's already possible, as 'bookmarks' that that doesn't help!) but also to DISPLAY MARKERS INTO THE SCORE (as explained above).

3. Finale can import the tempo information from standard MIDI files - and with the MIDI-Tempo-tool it actually shows the correct tempo changes in each bar (from the original midi file).. but it is really a hell of work to manually create and insert all the individual Time Changes (quarter note = 82 B.P.M. - some bars later: quarter note = 79 B.P.M. and so on...) that's really a lot of work to make the score look like the original cue should be and the conductor knows when the tempo changes (especially when he's using free timing with streamers, but also with click tracks).
Please can you create a PLUGIN that automatically recognizes the TEMPO information and automatically creates the 'Tempo Signals' symbol (for example: 'quarter note = 72').

Those 3 developments would make professional film scoring soooo much easier!!

If anybody has more practical ideas for film scoring tools in future Finale, please share them! We would really love to see those improvements in the upcoming Finale version.

Best wishes!
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michelp
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   Posted 3/30/2012 6:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
+1 for the movie features.
Just be aware that to be taken into account, these requests have to be submitted to the Support section on their website.
Request # 3 has been mentioned in this forum on several occasions, but is still waiting to be implemented...


Michel
Finale 2012a, 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, MacOsX 10.7.3 (Lion), Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 8 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. Midi interface : MOTU Midi Express XT. Roland Sound Canvas SC88-vl.

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tim
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   Posted 3/30/2012 12:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
the other thing would be to allow decimal places in tempo markings. Often I am arranging a pop song that might have been at 125.5 or something and I drop the rhythm track in and need finale to sync up. I can't have that as a tempo and have it playback. I have to double it and make it 8ths to trick the program. I am not sure if finale leaves decimals in place when you import midi files, I always tell it not to import tempo as if you do lots of copy and paste you can end up with stability issues.

The other suggestions are good too.

Tim
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Yosemite Sam
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   Posted 3/30/2012 4:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just a general "+1" to the requests/ideas in the original post. Great suggestions.

I've occasionally run a "blank" or "conductor" staff at the top of my score. I then fill this with things like dialogue entrances and action snippets, marker information, click track info, streamer starts/lengths, streamer (and regular) punches, x-noteheads on specific hits, etc.

If Finale was to offer more capability/automation with all of these types of things, I'd be thrilled. Might also be helpful for Finale to offer SMPTE timecode markings and elapsed time markings (slightly different from SMPTE timecode, in that elapsed time will always start with something like 00:00).

Allowing click tempos (such as 11-8 or 9-3, for example), and allowing two-way conversion would be cool too, though it's not generally necessary these days. It's been a long time since I did my last click-tempo cue. Logic, DP, and other DAWs still allow film click tempos, though, so I don't think this would be a terribly difficult thing to include.

In fact, I might suggest that lots of these things (tempo, elapsed time, click tempo, SMPTE timecode location, dialogue snippets or other marker information, etc.) could be toggled to display or not via Staff Styles, so the info would be displayed over selected whole or partial measures. Not sure if that's the best implementation or not, but it's at least an idea.

But I think having an underlying marker structure which contains all this info would be quite helpful, regardless of the method used to have it display in a score.

One last film-scoring friendly feature that would be helpful would be the ability to insert (or remove, or shift) by time. So if something is set to a specific SMPTE location, it'd be easy to push it back (or ahead) by 3.0 seconds. Of leave everything in its SMPTE-locked position, but insert 7 seconds of time in the middle of a piece (things before the insert stay the same, but everything after shifts 7 seconds back). Or insert 6 seconds and 4 frames. This sort of thing would help when the film cut changes, or when absolute time is needed. You could then go through and work out the musical sense (meter, tempo, content, etc.) of the inserted time, but know that everything after that point is still intact and still syncs up.

Obviously, we can't have everything, and I'm sure MakeMusic would be looking at diminishing returns by investing too heavily down some of these roads, but these are some of the types of things that I think it would be cool for Finale to do.
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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 4/1/2012 11:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Since we're on the subject... I'd love to see a "tempo" window in Finale that lists all the tempi in the piece, in one place, where they could be edited. Having to click on the tempo tool and scroll thru a bunch of measures works, but having the tempo changes as a list would be helpful - especially when Finale "fits to picture" or changes an elapsed time. In a dream state, I imagine Finale displaying the "current" tempo" and other data in realtime in some small corner of the screen. Normally, that isn't an issue, but in film, with tempo changes all over the place to fit the picture, it is nice to know when things are changing and precisely how fast or how slow a tempo alteration is. Clicking on any tempo would bring up the tempo list. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it (about 108 per minute). LOL!

Same thing for text entries. Show them as an editable list of entries that can be altered, deleted, added, etc. For cues as well as other score indications, reviewing text, tempo, and other non-note entries would make life easier, IMO.

In short, something along the lines of an "event list" as many sequencers define that kind of information list.

Thanks for the thread.


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 20GB RAM.

Finale 2012; Digital Performer 8 [soon]; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

MIDI Life Crisis

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 4/1/2012 3:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Guys,
Excuse my ignorance, please, but isn't this something that a DAW would be better equipped to handle? Honestly, I'm not looking to start a fight. I'm just curious why a music notation (and playback) program should go into this depth of detail.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b. Still happily on Windows XP, SP3. Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 4/1/2012 3:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I go with Mike. There are so many DAWs and Finale is first a notation software. I have seen scores of film music makers and all there (note writing, "engraving") could be done within DAW like Cubase, Logic or PT.


Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8 OS X 10.5.8 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4 / MAX 6 / SuperCollider / CSound
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

Post Edited (OCTOECHOS) : 4/1/2012 3:50:52 PM (GMT-5)

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 4/1/2012 3:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But great to have ideas anyway ;-)


Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8 OS X 10.5.8 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4 / MAX 6 / SuperCollider / CSound
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

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Philip.
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   Posted 4/1/2012 5:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
- Insert Hit Points at SMPTE position and display in score
- Shift Hit Points globally
- Import tempo information and automatically display all tempo changes
- Simply click and edit a tempo change in the score without going through nested dialogs
- Video import and sync with support for a variety of frame rates
- Fit music to time (hit points)
- Decimal places in tempo markings
- Displaying the current tempo and other data in realtime in some small corner of the screen
And..
REWIRE

Sibelius can do all of these things right now, and Finale cannot. If you need all these things on a regular basis, try it out.

I'm not looking to start another Fin v. Sib. discussion. Perhaps there are other reasons you like or need to use Finale. Some of you already know I use Finale and Sibelius in roughly equal measure, both have strengths and weaknesses. But for film work (IMO) Sibelius wins.


Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.2
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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 4/1/2012 6:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, a DAW will do a better job at these film related activities. However, it will do an incredibly worse job at letting a composer write with traditional notation and easy to use step time entry. Logic, DP, Pro Tools... they all suck at entering notes quickly without playing in real time on a midi controller. Many of us prefer to write music in Finale because it best simulates the traditional method of pen and paper in a digital medium.

For the life of me, I don't understand why this has never been properly addressed in any of the major DAW suites.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 4/1/2012 7:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeremy Levy said...
Yes, a DAW will do a better job at these film related activities. However, it will do an incredibly worse job at letting a composer write with traditional notation and easy to use step time entry. Logic, DP, Pro Tools... they all suck at entering notes quickly without playing in real time on a midi controller. Many of us prefer to write music in Finale because it best simulates the traditional method of pen and paper in a digital medium.

For the life of me, I don't understand why this has never been properly addressed in any of the major DAW suites.


Maybe for the same reason that Finale hasn't "properly" addressed the capabilities of a DAW. Do one thing, do it well, and move on.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b. Still happily on Windows XP, SP3. Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 4/2/2012 12:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My point being that neither type of program fulfills the need for either type of situation. I don't see the point of saying each program should only do one thing well, when there are very important musical situations that overlap. There are serious weaknesses in both types of programs.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 4/2/2012 10:21 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If I want to put together a book, with photos, should my DTP program also handle complex editing of the pictures? Should my photo editing program handle all the details of page layout?

Yes, every program has its strengths and weaknesses. Going to extremes, should there be just one computer program that does everything a person could want? Maybe it's time for a "Movie Scoring" program, that would bridge the gaps between Finale and a DAW. But then, people would say that it doesn't do...



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b. Still happily on Windows XP, SP3. Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 4/2/2012 12:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike,

I'm not really arguing for more film scoring features in Finale. It would need a ton of added functionality to get there. I'm arguing for more legitimate notation features in DAW software. We're talking about two types of software that are used to write music. If you're coming from traditional orchestration/notation, DAW software doesn't offer very much for you in entering music into the program. Even when Avid bought Sibelius, the notation improvements they made for Pro Tools were mostly cosmetic.

Point being, there is MUCH room for improvements on both sides.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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Yosemite Sam
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   Posted 4/2/2012 3:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike, I use a DAW (usually Logic, occasionally DP) for my composition, mock-ups, and audio shaping, as well as for working out all my timings. However, I still use Finale for notation. Everything I talked about has to do with my printed score and parts (and the ensuing podium experience) for performing/recording the score. None of my suggestions had anything to do with creating the music itself.

It would be much easier if I could import and/or easily edit timing information (markers, cues, dialogue, streamers, punches, click information) into Finale specifically because I am looking at a printed score when I conduct, and it has these things in it. If it goes in a printed part or a printed score, it sure seems to me that it'd be relevant to Finale.
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 4/2/2012 4:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
why not to compose in Finale, do a very nice score, layout etc, and than export MIDI to Logic?


Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8 OS X 10.5.8 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4 / MAX 6 / SuperCollider / CSound
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 4/2/2012 5:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's just a pain in the butt to have to go back and forth and worry about midi channels and all the other I/O stuff. Generally speaking, the process goes the other way around. Compose to picture in DAW, make the mockup, and then import into Finale to finish the orchestration and other music prep stuff. I'm just wishing it was easier to compose to picture on the DAW side.

But, honestly, it would be great to have as much overlap in the middle between the two programs as possible. Then let the heavy lifting go to each specialized program.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 4/3/2012 11:22 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I find Logic's capability to notate quite good. Ok, why not in that case make music and everything done in DAW, and than export it in to Finale (as Midi or whatever?).


Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8 OS X 10.5.8 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4 / MAX 6 / SuperCollider / CSound
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

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BassTard777
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   Posted 4/15/2012 5:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for your great suggestions and ideas!
Unfortunately I'm afraid some didn't quite understand what we actually mean...
Yes of course it is more flexible and professional to do scoring in sequencing softwares (I use Logic for this purpose) but I'm talking about something else:

After the scoring is finished (and I'm talking about film scoring that's going to be recorded with a real orchestra!) you need to write everything 'again' - first the score and then the individual parts.
For the scoring session with the orchestra a conductor (also music editors - and also the tech guys at the scoring stage) do need a lot of information IN THE SCORE.
Timecode information, Clix, and important 'hit point' information (text boxes with descriptions of the scene) - streamers, punches (special symbols above the score that can be easily created in finale)

But imagine after the scoring process in the sequencer (making all the timing, tempo adjustments.. optical markers, etc..) you have to do all this MANUALLY again in the notation software!
That's really a crazy job!!
Of course we can import the standard MIDI file into finale and it has the time signature, tempo, etc. informations. But for example you can't display the 'MARKERs' in the score - and that's what I suggested in my original post. Imagine a plugin or function in Finale that makes it possible by few mouse clicks to display all the original marker texts (that are even inside the MIDI file!) in the score! What a time saving bless! :-)
Imagine you have to add all these texts manually in the score!! When you're scoring a film you actually don't have much time and those little things really are time consuming.

And the same with the Tempo markers: in every MIDI file that you import from your sequencer to Finale there's the tempo information included.
And imagine the situation: you have a score with many tempo and time sig changes (that's really normal for film scoring) - now you import your cue into finale and guess what? -> nothing in the score shows you (or the conductor!) that bar 'xy' has a tempo change from 100 to 93 BPM.
What I have to do now is to use the midi tool, check out all the bars if there are tempo changes and then manually create with the expression tool new Tempo markers (quarter = 93 BPM, etc..)
That's also a crazy job!

But it's necessary because you need those informations in the printed score otherwise the conductor and the performing musicians get lost during the scoring session and you loose time - time is money and the producers won't be happy with that at all - believe me ;-)

So please, NO SEQUENCER VS. NOTATION SOFTWARE posts. :-) we know the technical benefit of sequencers and it's obvious that they are vitally important!

Best wishes

Post Edited (BassTard777) : 4/15/2012 4:52:06 AM (GMT-5)

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Philip.
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   Posted 4/15/2012 8:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Once again, I say, Sibelius has all the things you need, right now. Try it. Otherwise, wait for Finale 2013, or 14, or 15...


Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c, 2012a
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.2
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Mac 10.6.8
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10 GB RAM
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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 4/15/2012 5:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael Mortilla said...
Since we're on the subject... I'd love to see a "tempo" window in Finale that lists all the tempi in the piece, in one place, where they could be edited. Having to click on the tempo tool and scroll thru a bunch of measures works, but having the tempo changes as a list would be helpful - especially when Finale "fits to picture" or changes an elapsed time. In a dream state, I imagine Finale displaying the "current" tempo" and other data in realtime in some small corner of the screen. Normally, that isn't an issue, but in film, with tempo changes all over the place to fit the picture, it is nice to know when things are changing and precisely how fast or how slow a tempo alteration is. Clicking on any tempo would bring up the tempo list. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it (about 108 per minute). LOL!

Same thing for text entries. Show them as an editable list of entries that can be altered, deleted, added, etc. For cues as well as other score indications, reviewing text, tempo, and other non-note entries would make life easier, IMO.

In short, something along the lines of an "event list" as many sequencers define that kind of information list.


You mean like this old plug-in? http://www.jwmusic.nu/forza/tempo.html


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 4/15/2012 5:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...


You mean like this old plug-in? http://www.jwmusic.nu/forza/tempo.html

Jari,

Is this plugin available for the Mac?


Macbook Pro OSX 10.6.8, 2.66GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB RAM

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michelp
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   Posted 4/16/2012 7:23 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...


You mean like this old plug-in? http://www.jwmusic.nu/forza/tempo.html


Very interesting plug-in (I think it was PC only). I would add that a common request is to have tempo changes automatically displayed in the score (especially when they are the result of a calculation, "Fit to time").


Michel
Finale 2012a, 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, MacOsX 10.7.3 (Lion), Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 8 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. Midi interface : MOTU Midi Express XT. Roland Sound Canvas SC88-vl.

Post Edited (michelp) : 4/16/2012 6:26:42 AM (GMT-5)

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 4/18/2012 10:27 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...
Jari Williamsson said...


You mean like this old plug-in? http://www.jwmusic.nu/forza/tempo.html

Jari,

Is this plugin available for the Mac?


It isn't even available for current versions of Finale/Win. I used it pre-HP when I manually set the tempo changes.


Jari Williamsson

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2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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Donald Sosin
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   Posted 12/31/2012 6:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just saw this thread...I'm in the same situation always. Much easier to play wild into Digital Performer, and then create MIDI files to import into Finale, which is supposed to convert markers (there is a box for that in the import MIDI parameters, but it seems not to work). Back and forth, back and forth, it's crazy. I wrote one score entirely in Finale but it was a real chore and I had to do a lot of guesswork about fitting sections into the film scene by trial and error, as opposed to being able to manipulate time values pretty easily in DP.

Well, I hope everyone's New Year's wishes get answered!

All best
Donald Sosin
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