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Caitlin Rowley
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   Posted 1/30/2013 12:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So this is driving me nuts, but I've found a workaround, so thought I should post it here in case anyone else is having the same trouble and wishes to keep their hair attached rather than pull it out by the fistfuls. I'm hoping an upgrade to Finale 2012 will fix the problem but for now that's beyond my means, so this is what I have.

First was the problem of Finale treating a whole bar rest in 4/4 as the same as a whole bar rest in 3/4 (so four beats was turned into three) - documented with a very clunky fix here: http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=373468&g=373529#m373529

Today my problem is the opposite - in trying to change time signatures from 5/4 to an assortment of other alternatives, Finale is insisting that my whole bar rests are 4 beats and no more. The (truly awful) solution I've found is:

1. Select all and change all default rests to real rests using the plugin under Note, Beam and Rest Editing
2. Select all and Fill With Rests from Utilities > Check Notation. This will bugger up all your (correct) whole bar rests by adding an additional crotchet rest at the end to make the 5 beats.
3. Change your time signatures (bearing in mind that Finale will use default whole-bar rests for whole bar rests it's rebarred into when you change the time sig, so if you've got lots of time signature changes you'll have to do this whole process loads of times)
4. Manually go through the score deleting all the rests in whole bars that have extra crotchet rests so that Finale will replace them with default whole bar rests and your notation will be correct
5. Have small nervous breakdown and seriously consider switching to Sibelius

I really hope this helps someone because I've wasted half the day on it today. about to write to MakeMusic again...


Fin2010, MacBook Pro 2.16Ghz, 3Gb RAM, OSX10.6.8

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 1/30/2013 12:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just wondering why you need to change the default rest to a real rest at all.


Macbook Pro OSX 10.6.8, 2.66GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB RAM

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 1/30/2013 1:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You may find Jari Williamsson's JW Change plug-in very useful for things like this. It allows you to specify particular types of notation, e.g. note duration, layer, accidentals, types of rest, and then perform a wide range of alteration on them.

It's available in the Beta downloads of his FinaleTips website.
www.finaletips.nu

There are many other plug-ins which might also be useful to you. His Meter & Rhythm one, for instance.


"This is me helping."

Finale 2012c, 2.6Ghz 2012 MacMini 16Gb RAM (10.8.2)
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 1/30/2013 1:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...
Just wondering why you need to change the default rest to a real rest at all.
I agree. I see no reason to add "real" rests when the default rest is sufficient. The only time I've seen real rests as necessary is when attempting to attached things to them (like fermatas, for example), or if you're going to use one of the utilities to double/halve values.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAM

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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tbmartin
Yuba-Meister



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   Posted 1/30/2013 4:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...
Just wondering why you need to change the default rest to a real rest at all.

I have found issues with real vs default rests when Finale re-bars when changing time signatures, as the OP is doing. I have learned to be very careful with default vs real rests, and even then, I will find parts being off a beat or more towards the end, requiring all sorts of clean up.
 
I've seen issues with Speedy entry as well. If you "overstuff" a measure by 1 quarter note and then tell Finale to keep moving notes forward, it will do so until it hits a default rest. The extra beat will go into the empty measure and stop, even if there is more music after that measure with the default rest. If the rest is a real rest, then the process will keep going.


Terence
Saxophone Quartet Arranger
Using Finale 2003a, Windows XP Pro and Vista

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Caitlin Rowley
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   Posted 1/30/2013 5:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
@Jetcopy @Flint: like @tbmartin says, the default whole rests are not being correctly calculated when changing the time signature of existing music. I have a section of 5/4 I am trying to turn into 3/4. One part has 2 whole bar rests plus an additional 4 beats of rest - 14 crotchet beats, but when I change the time signature to 3/4, Finale gives me 12 crotchet beats of rest for this same area which of course then means that the parts are not correctly synchronised.

@Wiggy: thanks for the plugin recommendation - I'll check it out!


Fin2010, MacBook Pro 2.16Ghz, 3Gb RAM, OSX10.6.8

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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 1/30/2013 8:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I never bother with allowing Finale to rebar.

Sometimes the simplest answer is simply to redo things yourself, and not rely on an application to read your mind... and then get upset when it fails to do so.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAM

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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tbmartin
Yuba-Meister



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   Posted 1/30/2013 11:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
I never bother with allowing Finale to rebar.

Sometimes the simplest answer is simply to redo things yourself, and not rely on an application to read your mind... and then get upset when it fails to do so.

No assumption of mind-reading needed. A default whole rest is really a totally empty measure. It has no beats, regardless of what the time signature says. It's NOT full of rests. When you rebar, it's still just an empty measure. As long as you keep that in mind, it's not hard to predict exactly what Finale will do in any particular situation. The behaviour with empty measures is sometimes helpful if you use those measures as a buffer so it leaves the rest of the music alone.


Terence
Saxophone Quartet Arranger
Using Finale 2003a, Windows XP Pro and Vista

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Caitlin Rowley
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   Posted 2/4/2013 6:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No mind-reading required. Most of the time Finale will rebar correctly after changing a time signature, but in this piece (and another large ensemble piece I'm working on now as well as the mini opera I was working on when I posted the thread linked in my first post here) it isn't for some time signatures - that's the crux of the matter - mostly it works admirably, but some circumstances display a bug. I converted the whole bar rests into real rests in the hope that it would then maintain the correct number of beats rest when rebarring. I've tried not rebarring and just moving all 16 pages of orchestra score manually back into the 1 or 2 beat space left after the time signature change, but that has led to problems with the whole programme crashing.

Unfortunately the workaround in my original post only works some of the time. I have been unable to find any solution yet that will fix the problems shown in the attachment when changing from 5/4 into 3/4 - if anyone can see a possibility I may not have discovered, I would be delighted to know of it! As you can see in the PDF, changing to 3/4 at bar 52 loses one or two beats in most of the woodwind parts over the next few bars - but results in a massive uneven displacement of parts by the end of the file. The flute 1 part cannot even be seen in the screensnap of the end of the piece after the time signature change as it has lost 14 bars of rest somewhere along the way. It does this whether I leave the whole bar rests as default or fill them in with rests (which fixes most other occurrences of this problem with other time signatures).

MakeMusic recommended I change the time signature, convert to real rests then use Check Regions for Durations but while this fixes some spots, it doesn't catch all of them and the result is still misaligned parts.

I'm not intending to troll with this - just trying to document this bug and hopefully find a fix in case anyone else encounters it. This is the 3rd file I've come across this in now. Copying and pasting the content into a different file doesn't work. Moving the whole thing into Finale 2012 (I downloaded the trial version) doesn't fix it either.


Fin2010, MacBook Pro 2.16Ghz, 3Gb RAM, OSX10.6.8



File Attachment :
examples.pdf   238KB (application/pdf)
This file has been downloaded 224 time(s).
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Rockland Piano Tuning
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   Posted 2/9/2013 6:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Last weekend I was in my garden pulling weeds. I expected my wife to be delighted with the results, but she sadly informed me that I’d removed some “good” plants as well. They looked the same to me!

Or, rather, my expertise wasn’t such that I could tell the difference. So, with that in mind…

What’s the difference between these two measures?

“Nothing,” you say.
Okay, I agree, they do look the same, but the measure on the left contains a default whole rest while the measure on the right has a “real” whole rest.

What is the difference?


A default whole rest is purely visual, and one that Finale automatically places in every blank measure.

A real whole rest is an entry—something you placed in the score—just like a note or any other kind of rest.
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Caitlin Rowley
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   Posted 2/9/2013 7:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Rockland Piano Tuning - I'm not suggesting for a moment that there is no difference between default and "real" whole-bar rests - otherwise there'd be no point to changing them from default! My problem is with how Finale is sometimes interpreting them when changing time signatures. If you look at the examples.pdf in my last post, you will see the result of a single switch to 3/4 early in the piece which has affected bars with default whole-bar rests. If you look at the last two pages of the PDF, you will see that significant unexpected changes have been made to the music. Converting to real rests corrects this issue for some situations, but not for others. I am providing MakeMusic with more details so we can figure out how to solve this bug.


Fin2012, MacBook Pro 2.3Ghz i7 quad-core, 4Gb RAM, OSX10.8.2

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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 2/9/2013 6:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Caitlin Rowley said...
Hi Rockland Piano Tuning - I'm not suggesting for a moment that there is no difference between default and "real" whole-bar rests - otherwise there'd be no point to changing them from default! My problem is with how Finale is sometimes interpreting them when changing time signatures. If you look at the examples.pdf in my last post, you will see the result of a single switch to 3/4 early in the piece which has affected bars with default whole-bar rests. If you look at the last two pages of the PDF, you will see that significant unexpected changes have been made to the music. Converting to real rests corrects this issue for some situations, but not for others. I am providing MakeMusic with more details so we can figure out how to solve this bug.

Here is the fundamental disconnect... this is NOT a bug. It is the expected behavior when you choose to change time signatures in an already extant passage and select the option to Rebar.

Your tool is not misbehaving, your process and expectations are not in agreement with how the tool actually works.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAM

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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ockegheim
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   Posted 2/17/2013 8:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...

Your tool is not misbehaving, your process and expectations are not in agreement with how the tool actually works.


I want to change 46 bars of 4/4 to 92 bars of 2/4. Expecting one empty bar of 4/4 turning into two empty bars of 2/4 doesn’t feel particularly unreasonable.
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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 2/17/2013 9:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ockegheim said...
Flint said...

Your tool is not misbehaving, your process and expectations are not in agreement with how the tool actually works.


I want to change 46 bars of 4/4 to 92 bars of 2/4. Expecting one empty bar of 4/4 turning into two empty bars of 2/4 doesn’t feel particularly unreasonable.


I concur. It is hard to imagine any other outcome being more useful. I wonder what they were thinking when they implemented this.

Of course, I also wonder why when you scale chord symbols the kerning doesn't scale along with them. That also seems pretty obvious to me, but it's been that way for at least ten years and no signs of changing, despite constant complaints.


Christopher Smith

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or
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