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Skjalg
Accordion man



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   Posted 2/17/2014 5:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The pickup measure is one third of an 8th triplet. Time signature is x/4.


Skjalg Bjørstad, Norway

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Peter West
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   Posted 2/17/2014 5:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
as you've shown it the pick up is actually a quarter (made of 2 rests and a note triplet) so set the pickup measure to ¼ note.


Peter
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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 2/17/2014 5:53 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Skjalg,

1) There is nothing wrong in beginning a pickup measure with a rest - I can give you other examples of a pickup measure that begins with a rest.

In your example the meaning is clear, and it can not be misunderstood.

2) Also, you could omit/hide the rest, and display only the in-complete triplet note.
In that case I would remove the triplet's left hook, to make clear that the pickup note begins "off-beat".

3) See the attached graphic for some other ideas.

Peter


Mac Finale, 2011c, 2012c & 2014, Dolet 6.4 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.1, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM


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Skjalg
Accordion man



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   Posted 2/17/2014 6:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting. Thank you!

BTW - I don't like the way Finale handles pickup measures (it's pure cosmetics, not "real" pickup measures). If you use Finale's PM within a repeat (for multiple verses), playback turns out ...interesting. So I, and many others, I guess, make "real" pickup measures; change time sig, display another time sig, excludes the new PM from measure numbering. Never understood why Finale doesn't do it automatically that way by default.


Skjalg Bjørstad, Norway

_____________________________________________

Finale 3.0.6 > 2014a, Macbook Pro OS X 10.8.5, 8 gB RAM, 750 gB, Garritan JABB, GPO full version, Garritan COMB, Komplete 8 (Kontakt 5 etc.); Akai MPK mini, M-audio KeyStation 88es, Yamaha CP-33, PreSonus AudioBox USB, Logic Pro X
A live recording here.

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Vaughan
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   Posted 2/17/2014 6:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree. I tried using pickup measures a few times a long time ago and decided that it was better to do it by using a real measure with a different time signature and a different display. I can imagine that MM felt that this would be difficult to explain to beginners and developed this kludge to make it seem easier.


Vaughan

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 2/17/2014 12:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Skjalg said...
I…BTW - I don't like the way Finale handles pickup measures (it's pure cosmetics, not "real" pickup measures). If you use Finale's PM within a repeat (for multiple verses), playback turns out ...interesting. So I, and many others, I guess, make "real" pickup measures; change time sig, display another time sig, excludes the new PM from measure numbering. Never understood why Finale doesn't do it automatically that way by default.

Finale's feature "Pickup Measure" dates back to the very old Finale versions (Finale 3 or even older?).
The {pickup measure layout} is created with the Mirror Tool's invisible {placeholder rests}, a fact you can hear in playback.
Try e. g. an 8th note pickup in a slow 12/8 time…

BTW, the Mirror Tool is another feature that dates back to very old Finale versions.

The only advantage in using {Document menu > Pickup Measure…} is that it automatically excludes the pickup measure from measure numbering.

Peter

PS
I wonder whether it is possible to write a Finalescript script, that can create a pickup measure in the newer and better way via the Time Signature Tool.
Can a script be interactive, and display a dialog box where you can specify a pickup duration?
I believe it is possible to write a plug-in, that can do the trick.


Mac Finale, 2011c, 2012c & 2014, Dolet 6.4 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.1, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 2/17/2014 1:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know I've asked this before, but:
Are there rules about how many (or how few) beats should be in a pickup measure, related to the time signature? When should you use a rest, and when should you just start with the note? Does it depend on whether it's a beat, or an offbeat?



Mike Rosen
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Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
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FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014a on Mac 10.9.1
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 2/17/2014 1:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
I agree. I tried using pickup measures a few times a long time ago and decided that it was better to do it by using a real measure with a different time signature and a different display. I can imagine that MM felt that this would be difficult to explain to beginners and developed this kludge to make it seem easier.


Also, it allows them to offer a pickup measure in PrintMusic or SongWriter (but not NotePad) without giving the full Time Signature abilities of Finale.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer notation editor (The Gang of Eight) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014a on Mac 10.9.1
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Peter West
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   Posted 2/17/2014 2:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
traditionally the duration of the last bar and the pick up measure should add up to the time signature, but I think many people ignore such rules these days.


Peter
Music Publishing Services

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 2/17/2014 3:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's not uncommon in Mozart operas to have pickup measures in the middle of a number (a finale, say), that has no corresponding short measure before or after.

Mike, I think a rest would be needed only to clarify the rhythm, as in the present triplet example, or perhaps a dotted rhythm. Otherwise, not necessary.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 2/17/2014 4:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
…I think a rest would be needed only to clarify the rhythm…

Indeed.
I attach an example.
In this example the changing time signatures are a consequence of the fact that the lyrics (which I have omitted) are written in a iambic meter.

Peter


Mac Finale, 2011c, 2012c & 2014, Dolet 6.4 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.1, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM


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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 2/17/2014 6:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter Thomsen said...

3) See the attached graphic for some other ideas.


I like that. The second example is actually a very good. It takes less space and the tuplet pausing is correct (1+2 is allowed to be one quarter (but not 2+3)).
I definitely prefer Peter's second version!


Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 2/17/2014 6:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Mike, I think a rest would be needed only to clarify the rhythm, as in the present triplet example, or perhaps a dotted rhythm. Otherwise, not necessary.


So, the pickup is the note(s), and that's all. Got it! Thanks.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer notation editor (The Gang of Eight) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014a on Mac 10.9.1
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 2/17/2014 6:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
Motet said...
Mike, I think a rest would be needed only to clarify the rhythm, as in the present triplet example, or perhaps a dotted rhythm. Otherwise, not necessary.


So, the pickup is the note(s), and that's all. Got it! Thanks.


:)

and the rest of the orchestra will make a sniff if there is a rest pickup!


Finale 2011c, OS X 10.6.8

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 2/17/2014 6:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No doubt! But the majority of the people who use my transcriptions are (to be kind) less skilled than the orchestras (orchestrae?) that you deal with. And for many of them, even coming in on the beat is a challenge!



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer notation editor (The Gang of Eight) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014a on Mac 10.9.1
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 2/17/2014 8:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think it's always acceptable to add rests so that the pickup is a whole beat, if not strictly necessary, if that makes it easier for the singers you deal with.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Jack Clark
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   Posted 2/17/2014 10:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
No doubt! But the majority of the people who use my transcriptions are (to be kind) less skilled than the orchestras (orchestrae?) that you deal with. And for many of them, even coming in on the beat is a challenge!


Motet said...
I think it's always acceptable to add rests so that the pickup is a whole beat, if not strictly necessary, if that makes it easier for the singers you deal with.


Exactly what I do for our little amateur band and exactly why I do it. I mean, when you're playing with people who ask questions like "should I come in faster or slower?" . . .


Jack

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Bill Spencer
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   Posted 2/17/2014 11:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why wouldn't you just have a quarter rest and the eight note under the bracket instead of two eighth rests before the note?


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 2/18/2014 12:16 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's more usual to write such a triplet with two eighth rests.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 2/18/2014 2:31 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jack Clark said...
Mike Rosen said...
No doubt! But the majority of the people who use my transcriptions are (to be kind) less skilled than the orchestras (orchestrae?) that you deal with. And for many of them, even coming in on the beat is a challenge!


Motet said...
I think it's always acceptable to add rests so that the pickup is a whole beat, if not strictly necessary, if that makes it easier for the singers you deal with.


Exactly what I do for our little amateur band and exactly why I do it. I mean, when you're playing with people who ask questions like "should I come in faster or slower?" . . .


But even that's better than "Wait. What song are we doing?"



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer notation editor (The Gang of Eight) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014a on Mac 10.9.1
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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