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rsigler
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   Posted 5/28/2002 7:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Read the post from Kami in the "OSX and
Finale in classic" message...

What is CODA thinking?

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gwysham
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   Posted 5/28/2002 7:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OMG! This is *very* distressing, and greatly saddens me. 2003 will come out *a year-and-a-half* after the release of OS X 10.0, and I have *no* idea how long after the first developer seeds by Apple! That means it's going to take Coda something like 3-4 *years* to port their software. And they're not even building with Cocoa, but simply *Carbonizing* it! This leaves many of us in an entirely untenable position: unwilling to use anything in Classic (no, it's *not* just as good as running natively under X), and unable to move completely to X. I've been looking forward to Fin2k3 for the past several months, since it would be my last important classic app. I've been using Coda products for many years, and I don't really want to jump ship, but neither do I want to continue to use a Classic application. I guess we just hang for the next 16 months.

Sadly,
Geoff Wysham
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rsigler
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   Posted 5/28/2002 8:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As I said before, I still can't get over this!!!

Why did Coda announce that Finale 2003
would be an OSX application?

What are they thinking?

Also Sad,

Rob
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mknoll
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   Posted 5/28/2002 10:28 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Rob,

If you'll look carefully, Coda never said that Finale 2003 would be native OS X. At least every pronouncement that I've seen has carefully stated that Finale won't be OS X native BEFORE Finale 2003. I even posted the question several months back whether that particular formulation meant that 2003 would be native or 2004 (or even later), but I never got an answer.

I'm sure the delay is in the fact that they're re-writing the entire application from the ground up in Cocoa... ;-)

Cheers,

Mark
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somusque
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   Posted 5/28/2002 10:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Folks,

Kami wrote, they're doing it "as quickly as we can." So, concerning the delay, ours is not to reason why ... I am sure they would have preferred to get it done this year rather than the next.

> I'm sure the delay is in the
> fact that they're re-writing
> the entire application from
> the ground up in Cocoa... ;-)

Who knows? But I don't think so! After all, they are still forced to keep OS 8 & 9 compatibility for quite some years!!, and they also have to maintain code that works on Windows too. So any programming language other than C++ is out of the question. Cocoa normally requires a different kind of C, although I guess there must be a way around that.


--------------------------------------------
Tobias Giesen, Composer
http://www.tobiasgiesen.de
* now all major works as free MP3's *

Check out TGTools, my plug-in collection for Finale:
http://www.tgtools.de
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gwysham
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   Posted 5/28/2002 1:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Further to my earlier post, Carbon is supported back to *at least* OS 8.6 which came out in September of 1999. In fact, CarbonLib 1.0.4 requires OS 8.1! If Coda had taken all of this seriously, they could have been quietly carbonizing Finale for the past several years. It's a shame, really.

Geoff
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Éric Dussault
Finale 2011 Mac user



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   Posted 5/28/2002 1:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am so desperately mad at Coda for this!
It can't be true that us Mac users will be
the least up to date music engravers in
the world. When Finale 2004 will be out,
our dear competitor Sibelius will be
carbonized for a year and a half! I am still
waiting to switch to OS X because Finale is
the main application I use and I HAVE NO
INTENTION to use it in Classic mode!
Every major software firms have updated
their main ships to OS X, so what is Coda
doing? As always we will get only polite
and insignificant answers from them.
Nothing about the problems they are
facing for the portage (if there are at all),
or something else. I don't care about
getting my upgrade a month later than the
PC version, but that shows without a
doubt that they don't value Mac users at
all, that's all! It is obvious that they don't
care about that, but please share you
opinions to show them your frustration.
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digitalmusicart
Specialist Guitar Engravers



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   Posted 5/28/2002 1:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm, another post by "Anonymous",
wonder who that could be, identify
yourself you spineless wonder.

Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
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John Blane
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   Posted 5/28/2002 4:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Most of you whiners probably weren't around when a similar situation was mirrored on the PC side. I can't remember the details exactly (since it did not affect me) but when a Windows version was developed that allowed applications to progress from 16-bit to 32-bit , it was a big deal. Coda carefully took it's time to bring a 32-bit finale to market so they could get it right and not alienate the majority of their Windows customers. There were PC users clamoring for Coda to "get it together" then, too. It eventually came to be at the right time and in the right way for Coda to release a "working" 32-bit app. There were some growing pains, yes, but it eventually happened without leaving the majority of Windows user Finale orphans.

This situation (OSX) is even more severe because Apple hasn't finished incorporating the kick-ass midi implementation into the operating system that we'll all eventually be very grateful for. Coda plans to move more slowly than some of you want them to in an effort to re-tool Finale in OSX in a manner that won't orphan the majority of Mac users. If they hurried their development in an attempt to satisfy the impatience of a few OSX users and did not get it right or complete, you whiners would then become the most vocal complainers about how they rushed this to the marketplace and made us all their pre-release beta testers. It make perfect sense to me, for Finale to be usable (preliminarily) as a "Classic" app. -which at the moment, does NOT work in that environment.

Get a grip - this was clearly a departure from their normal policy to not pre-announce any of their release dates or development plans. There is a strong likelihood that they will surprise us all when they release the Cocoa app long before 2004. In the meantime, those of us that depend on Finale professionally will be glad to wait until Coda feels that they can release such a substantial rewrite - that works - in the new environment of OS X.

If you want to bail to Sibelius simply because you think that it will do what Finale does in OS X, then good luck and good riddance. You can start your whining at the Finn brothers for everything that frustrates you in Siblelius from now on.

Sorry to be so harsh but this is just too much under the circumstances. Coda has been one of the most responsive companies to the needs and wishes of it's users than any software company I can think of. Sure, there are long-standing issues that still need to be addressed, but I am confident that they will continue to be listening and responding to our wish lists for years to come. That is how Finale developed into the heavy-weight it is today.

Take your time and do it right, Coda. We'll be here when you do.
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rsigler
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   Posted 5/28/2002 5:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh please...we aren't whining, we are just
ready for Coda to make use of the best
operating system available, like all other
major applications have. OSX is more
than flashy icons and pretty gum-drop
buttons. It is rock-solid. And the "Kick-
Ass" midi system is in full gear. Apple
isn't waiting for anything.

Finale in OS 9 is still a great product, but
for some users (like me) OS9 and midi
are about as stable as Tommy Lee and
Pam Anderson. Midiman blames Coda,
and Coda blames Midiman.

I say do it right Coda, but please hurry.

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Éric Dussault
Finale 2011 Mac user



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   Posted 5/28/2002 6:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The whole thing isn't about whining. I am
here with Coda to stay because the
alternatives are not interesting (for me).
But just for example Adobe took a lot of
time to make the portage of Photoshop to
OS X. It was the last of their major
applications to be carbonized. They said
and took the time they needed to make it
right. What was Coda doing all this time if
it takes one year and a half more than, let
say. Photoshop.
Still, I want to be sure that they will make
it right (old bugs free), and better wait for
the best we can expect, but please as
soon as you can. I assume that they are
working hard to get the long requested
features we are waiting for(beaming
across measure, fixed lines sizes, grace
notes spacing, etc.). In the mean time, I
won't benefit from our wonderful new
operation system because Finale can't run
under it. It is as if I would run Finale (PC
version) under Virtual PC. I would do it
only if there were no choice.
go,go,go Coda
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down8ve
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   Posted 5/28/2002 6:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Now someone has brought up an interesting idea. Anyone have Virtual PC for OSX out there? If so, run Finale for Windows and see how things go.

The next year will be interesting. The power-users will stay with Finale due to the power and the amount of learning we have invested in the product. I don't think others will, and we really are looking into running Jaguar in the lab next year, if possible. The Sibelius folks have been traveling all over Minnesota delivering copies of their program for folks to try, doing pretty well too.

We are waiting until a review of the non-demo version is completed in our lab. We'll see.

Scott
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John Blane
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   Posted 5/28/2002 8:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On 5/28/2002 9:27:00 PM, Rob Sigler wrote:

>>And the "Kick-Ass" midi system is in full gear. <<

Sorry Rob, but I believe you're wrong. The best is yet to come.
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jbmelby
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   Posted 5/29/2002 4:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe this is an unintended message
from Coda that indicates that since there
are more Windows users of Finale than
Mac users, they really don't give a damn
about Mac OS X. I can understand Coda's
delaying an OS X version until OS X is
stabilized--but hell, OS X has been out in
a *release* version for over a year. The
only thing keeping me from retiring
Classic altogether (and remember, I'm
the one who's been posting messages to
the effect that Finale 98d, 2001d, and
2002b are all running successfully for me
in the Classic environment) has been
Finale. I have just placed my order for
Sibelius 2.1. 'Bye, Coda!
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tymmahrquing
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   Posted 5/29/2002 6:48 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On 5/28/2002 10:22:00 PM, Eric Dussault wrote:
>But just for example Adobe
>took a lot of
>time to make the portage of
>Photoshop to
>OS X. It was the last of their
>major
>applications to be carbonized.
>They said
>and took the time they needed
>to make it
>right. What was Coda doing all
>this time if
>it takes one year and a half
>more than, let
>say. Photoshop.

Boy, I wonder if Coda has as many dedicated programmers as Adobe has in order to carbonize things so quickly. I bet not. We must remember that Coda is a small company.

Ty
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rsigler
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   Posted 5/29/2002 7:16 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I just ordered Sibelius too.
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somusque
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   Posted 5/29/2002 9:03 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You guys seem to be just nuts. You make it sound as though the OS is nowadays the only criterion for selecting notation software. It is NOT. Pros select the tool they need and then simply use the system that the tool runs on. The system itself is of subordinate importance.

And you're not taking Kami's words seriously either, who said Coda is developing the OSX version "AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN". That means that they simply have not been able to finish it yet. As a software developer myself, I have a lot of sympathy for that. It's not like the Coda development team has been lazy in the past few years - quite on the contrary, they've added important features. They must also have taken many steps on the road to a carbonized Finale, but they just haven't arrived at that goal yet.

Sibelius is simply out of the question for me, so if I were using a Mac for notation I'd stick with Finale nonetheless.

Anyway, you should blame Apple for creating this terrible situation. No MS Windows version has ever had to start a resource-hungry virtual machine with an older OS for compatibility. They have provided backwards compatibility in a more seamless way, and Apple could have done that too.

--------------------------------------------
Tobias Giesen, Composer
http://www.tobiasgiesen.de
* now all major works as free MP3's *

Check out TGTools, my plug-in collection for Finale:
http://www.tgtools.de
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John Blane
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   Posted 5/29/2002 9:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On 5/29/2002 11:16:00 AM, Rob Sigler wrote:

>>I just ordered Sibelius too.<<


I already own it - I just have the good sense not to use it.
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digitalmusicart
Specialist Guitar Engravers



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   Posted 5/29/2002 9:33 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Using Sibelius on OSX is like taking the
engine out of a Ferrari and fitting push
pedals. All you people who go buy a copy,
have fun and see you in either a) 2
months or b) when Finale X comes out or
c) a few weeks as unfortunately one of
my important customers wants things in
scorch (bletch).

I may have to use Sibelius professionally
some time soon, but being caught using
it is (I theorize!!) a little like being caught
wearing your aunties drawers ...

Simon Troup
Digital Music Art
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musicofnote
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   Posted 5/29/2002 12:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tobias,

Unless I've misunderstood, didn't MS
release Win95 as a 32-bit system
claiming protected memory and such in
the large type while sheepishly having to
admit, that yes, 16-bit programs probably
will mostly work, except when they crash
and then could also take the system with
it? Not forgetting the whole DOS
underpinings that no oen really could live
with or without.

OS X has been a reality for over a year
and public beta for a year or longer before
that. That Sibelius was able to market a
product for OSX as has MOTU and
Emagic shows it can be done if the
companies commitment is in the right
place.

but the market rules and the Mac market
no longer rules Coda. Heck, Coda no
longer rules Coda. The policy used to be
alternate first new Mac version one year,
then new Windows version first next year
(or visa-versa). Which versions came out
first the last two years? Which one is
coming out first this time around? Do you
buy the argument, that the Windows
users can find all the bugs that will then
be fixed in the Mac release?

greetings

Leonard Cecil
ACE-[SYSOP] on Compuserve
Music of Note
http://www.music-of-note.com
(not anonymous)
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somusque
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   Posted 5/29/2002 2:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Leonard:
> Unless I've misunderstood, didn't MS release
> Win95 as a 32-bit system claiming protected memory and
> such in the large type while sheepishly having to
> admit, that yes, 16-bit programs probably will mostly work, except when
> they crash and then could also take the system with it?

No. Bug-free standard 16-bit applications were never a problem on 32-bit OS. They still work on the latest Windows XP. Of course Win95 was less stable than WinXP is today - so what?

> Not forgetting the whole DOS underpinings ...

That's not the issue. Microsoft never drove software vendors into terrible situations like the one Coda is in right now.

> OS X has been a reality for over a year

On what percentage of Macs in use?

tg

--------------------------------------------
Tobias Giesen, Composer
http://www.tobiasgiesen.de
* now all major works as free MP3's *

Check out TGTools, my plug-in collection for Finale:
http://www.tgtools.de
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Matthew Hindson
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   Posted 5/29/2002 2:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Agreed that Apple should take some of the blame with OS X and its very slow rollout of core Audio and MIDI services. IIRC, it's only been the last version (10.1.4) where these things were implemented. Maybe the next full OSX version, 10.5, due apparently in August, will have the finalised support structures.

Remember when OS X was first mentioned, together with the whole Carbon/Cocoa business? Apple stated that most applications would be able to be carbonized with a minimum of fuss. Finale is not obviously one of those, but then again, neither was any other of the major applications.

Still, Sibelius will probably get a little bit more market share out of this. But Coda is no doubt working as hard as it can. Why would they do otherwise?

(Personally, I still don't see what the big deal about OS X is. It looks nicer, yeah. Multiple users is nice. But crash-proof? I don't think so - I've crashed it many times. Latest drama is that on one computer I can't restart in OS 9 from X as the Startup Disk control panel hangs the whole computer every time I open it. The new file browsing system with the non-resizable panels stinks. As well as trying to work out simple things like how to install fonts - apparently there are five different places. Life's too short.)
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Éric Dussault
Finale 2011 Mac user



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   Posted 5/29/2002 3:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We Finale users probably won't switch to
Sibelius because it is not as powerful and
custumizable as our own package.
Obviously a lot of the people who will
switch will probably be back soon also. But
any new Mac user buy is in favor of
Sibelius, as it is still good enough for most
needs, at least for beginners. That will hurt
Coda. It is I think the most natural thing to
show how disappointed we were at the
situation. Coda has missed the train and
made against his will a statement against
Mac users. I don't think it is Apple's fault,
as they provided what is needed to
develop Carbonized apps and we know
for a long time that OS X is the future. But
I like Tobias and Jari's attitudes because
they really know the problems a
developer can face. Coda has probably
already a lot of work made to carbonize
Finale and let's hope they are sincere
when they say « as soon as we can ».
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Jim Coull
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   Posted 5/29/2002 3:18 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There is an interesting thread on the Windows side of this forum about releasing buggy software. For those who haven't read it (or don't want to read it), the general theme is "fix the known problems", i.e., grace note spacing, lyric tool, etc., before adding more features. While making Finale OSX native is not an added feature, I would cast my vote (if we still have one :-)) for getting a bug-free version of the current Finale (? v.2003) before time is spent on an OSX version. Of course, that's easy for me to say because, like Matthew, I am not particularly thrilled with OSX and still spend most of my time with OS9x. Also, I have not had the problems running Finale in Classic that others have noted on this forum.

Jim Coull

BTW, while I don't have any personal experiences with MIDI and OSX, the few comments I have heard from my colleagues that are trying seem to indicate that the "kick ass" MIDI system is far from finished and works inconsistently, at best.
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musicofnote
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   Posted 5/30/2002 6:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
< applications were never a problem on
32-bit OS. They still work on the latest
Windows XP. Of course Win95 was less
stable than WinXP is today - so what?>>

Are you saying that Finale was bug-free
then or now??? finale never has been
and never will be bug free. Surely you're
not saying that Coda is waiting to produce
a bug-free OSX version?

< drove software vendors into terrible
situations like the one Coda is in right
now.>

Apple hasn't driven anyone anywhere. Are
you sure that Coda got one of those free
developer beta kits when they were being
passed out over 2 years ago and started
doing their homework? I'm not so
convinced. Apple gave everyone ample
warning that OS X with it's UNIX was the
way they were going, but lot's of people
didn't believe them. So they waited to see
which way the wind blew - and got caught
with their pants down.

Apple has cut off development on OS 9.
Apple always said they would. Apples
focus is on OS X. did you hear SJ at the
WDC? How about the XServer intro?
What's new, is that it's real. Apple is now
the largest UNIX provider in the World -
larger than Sun. they shipped over
800,000 units last quarter alone, all
booting by default into OS X. Sure that
doesn't compare to Win98, but Finale
was a Mac program and Coda, if it's
serious about it's Mac customers should
have stayed on the ball.

The simple fact that the Finns did
produce a Sibelius, that digital Performer
and Logic are OS X native shows that it
could have been done.

But it wasn't.

< >>

Who cares? It's the future and it's not
even new. Does Coda have a developer
copy of 10.2? If not, why not? that's not
even "here" yet, but it will be. Will we have
to wait - again?
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