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soundartist
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   Posted 9/24/2014 11:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi,
Each time I zoom in or out, the 8va regions get shifted out of place. Attached are three illustrations of problem. In the Tiff-images, I include the displacement of my fingerings, and then where their proper positions should be. Attached also is an excerpt containing several 8va regions—wondering if any of you can replicate problem by zooming in and out and checking for the 8va positions.

What's curious, is that I can easily correct for their positions by just clicking on the tiny square corresponding to the 8va. It seems to remember each time the former positions I calibrated. With just a single click into the tiny square, the 8va regions fall right back into place, without requiring any adjustments from either left or right side of region. Problem occurs again upon zooming in or out.

[Document is still in raw form—copying from my handwritten manuscript.]

Many thanks in advance.

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/24/2014 10:47:14 PM (GMT-5)


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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 9/25/2014 2:53 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When I hear about things jumping position, my first thought is Font Annotation files. Are you using a non-standard Music font?


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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 7:23 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No, I didn't make any modifications to the font. Created document using just Finale's default font. In worst case scenario, after restoring text to correct positions, can create PDF file from document, but would like to avoid having to constantly restore positions.
I just reported this error to tech. support.

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/25/2014 6:41:32 AM (GMT-5)

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 9/25/2014 8:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I looked at the images and I don't see any Smart Shapes (which are a certain class of shapes that are entered with the Smart Shape tool). I also don't see an 8va marking (which could be a Smart Shape, an Expression, or an Articulation.)

Are your fingerings entered as Articulations? There is a fairly well-documented bug involving articulations changing place willy-nilly, especially on resized staves. Manual placement in the articulation definition is supposed to make them exempt from this bug, and in Finale's defaults the fingerings have only manual placement. A redraw (cmd-D) is supposed to show you where the articulations really are, as clicking them won't necessarily do it.


Christopher Smith

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 8:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The 8va regions (entered as Smart Shapes) are in the Finale file attachment which I provided in this thread. The snapshots contain only the fingerings. I wrote in the fingerings using the Text tool, not Articulations.

Christopher Smith said...
I looked at the images and I don't see any Smart Shapes (which are a certain class of shapes that are entered with the Smart Shape tool). I also don't see an 8va marking (which could be a Smart Shape, an Expression, or an Articulation.)

Are your fingerings entered as Articulations? There is a fairly well-documented bug involving articulations changing place willy-nilly, especially on resized staves. Manual placement in the articulation definition is supposed to make them exempt from this bug, and in Finale's defaults the fingerings have only manual placement. A redraw (cmd-D) is supposed to show you where the articulations really are, as clicking them won't necessarily do it.

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/25/2014 7:49:21 AM (GMT-5)

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michelp
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   Posted 9/25/2014 8:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
soundartist said...
I wrote in the fingerings using the Text tool, not Articulations.

Don't expect these texts to follow layout changes, in this case the Text tool is the wrong tool...! Articulations (or expressions) is the way to go.


Michel
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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 9:03 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I didn't perform any layout changes. I only zoomed in and out. I have never had this problem before, until this piece.

michelp said...
soundartist said...
I wrote in the fingerings using the Text tool, not Articulations.

Don't expect these texts to follow layout changes, in this case the Text tool is the wrong tool...! Articulations (or expressions) is the way to go.
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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 10:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Problem has now gotten worse: After re-adjusting position of one 8va region, this region jumps back to its wrong position after I re-adjust the position of another 8va region. Unable to make PDF copy of piece without these errors—this glitch is causing delays in delivering music. Awaiting reply from MM tech support after submitting this problem. This issue is affecting other smart shapes as well.

Is there a way to freeze or lock the positions of smart shapes?

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/25/2014 9:42:10 AM (GMT-5)

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 9/25/2014 11:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ah. I'm not on 2014, so I wouldn't be able to open the .musx file.

But use Articulations or Expressions for fingerings. They will stay attached to the notes (mostly, as I mentioned.)

Christopher


soundartist said...
The 8va regions (entered as Smart Shapes) are in the Finale file attachment which I provided in this thread. The snapshots contain only the fingerings. I wrote in the fingerings using the Text tool, not Articulations.

Christopher Smith said...
I looked at the images and I don't see any Smart Shapes (which are a certain class of shapes that are entered with the Smart Shape tool). I also don't see an 8va marking (which could be a Smart Shape, an Expression, or an Articulation.)

Are your fingerings entered as Articulations? There is a fairly well-documented bug involving articulations changing place willy-nilly, especially on resized staves. Manual placement in the articulation definition is supposed to make them exempt from this bug, and in Finale's defaults the fingerings have only manual placement. A redraw (cmd-D) is supposed to show you where the articulations really are, as clicking them won't necessarily do it.


Christopher Smith

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Vaughan
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   Posted 9/25/2014 12:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree with entering fingerings as articulations. The Text Tool is indeed the wrong tool. There are other strange things going on with the file. Why do you have Independent Time Signatures set for all three staves? This doesn't make sense at all. The top staff should always be set normally (Finale doesn't like ITS on the top staff), with the piano having ITS. I think that the bizarre, incorrect spacing you're getting in m. 2 is a direct result of this.


Vaughan

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 12:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Independent Time Signatures are an absolute neccesity because at certain points in the piece, I use different time signatures for violin and piano, simultaneously—3/4 for violin, and 9/8 for piano.

Vaughan said...
I agree with entering fingerings as articulations. The Text Tool is indeed the wrong tool. There are other strange things going on with the file. Why do you have Independent Time Signatures set for all three staves? This doesn't make sense at all. The top staff should always be set normally (Finale doesn't like ITS on the top staff), with the piano having ITS. I think that the bizarre, incorrect spacing you're getting in m. 2 is a direct result of this.

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/25/2014 11:15:34 AM (GMT-5)

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 12:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Understood—thank you. I'll use Articulations for fingering from now on. The most serious problems remains with the Smart Shapes displacement. Other parameters, like articulations and expressions have not been affected by this glitch, at least so far.

Christopher Smith said...
Ah. I'm not on 2014, so I wouldn't be able to open the .musx file.

But use Articulations or Expressions for fingerings. They will stay attached to the notes (mostly, as I mentioned.)

Christopher


soundartist said...
The 8va regions (entered as Smart Shapes) are in the Finale file attachment which I provided in this thread. The snapshots contain only the fingerings. I wrote in the fingerings using the Text tool, not Articulations.

Christopher Smith said...
I looked at the images and I don't see any Smart Shapes (which are a certain class of shapes that are entered with the Smart Shape tool). I also don't see an 8va marking (which could be a Smart Shape, an Expression, or an Articulation.)

Are your fingerings entered as Articulations? There is a fairly well-documented bug involving articulations changing place willy-nilly, especially on resized staves. Manual placement in the articulation definition is supposed to make them exempt from this bug, and in Finale's defaults the fingerings have only manual placement. A redraw (cmd-D) is supposed to show you where the articulations really are, as clicking them won't necessarily do it.
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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 12:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I just attached a .mus version of the file.
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Vaughan
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   Posted 9/25/2014 12:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My point remains: you don't need all three staves to have independent time signatures. You should always set the top staff normally and the other staves to have ITS.


Vaughan

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 1:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I will try your suggestion. As far as I can remember, I already tried it and it didn't work because when I changed one instrument's time signature from 3/4 to 9/8, it changed the time signature of the other instrument. Someone here instructed me—can't remember who—to switch on ITS for all the staves, not just the piano's staves. This was the only solution to being able to set different time signatures simultaneously. What I don't understand is, what is the connection between ITS and Smart Shape positioning?

Vaughan said...
My point remains: you don't need all three staves to have independent time signatures. You should always set the top staff normally and the other staves to have ITS.

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/25/2014 12:12:23 PM (GMT-5)

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 2:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just spoke to tech support. Strong suspicion of corruption in document. I was instructed to delete preferences file, then to export my piece in XML, and reimport it as an XML file. Result showed much more severe displacement of text than even in original document—attaching a snapshot of the affected fragment and Finale file of this same fragment. I'm awaiting a written response after they investigate the file. Independent time signatures was not suspected as source of the problem.
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Vaughan
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   Posted 9/25/2014 3:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I still suspect ITS on all staves, especially when trying to export and re-import using XML. Try again what you described above in a new violin-piano document: leave the violin part alone and set both piano staves for ITS. Selecting any one of the staves and changing the time signature will do so only in that one staff. You do have to make the change per staff; you can't, for example, select both piano staves and change their TS in one go, either with the contextual menu or in the TS window.


Vaughan

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Vaughan
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   Posted 9/25/2014 3:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Take a look at this version of the first document you posted. I removed ITS for the violin, at which point it resembled your second document, with overfilled measures and messed up spacing, since my action had made the violin part revert to 4/4. I then changed the time signatures of the violin part to match your original (as well as the piano part; they're not independent in this particular example). I made sure to include only the correct measure regions and to deselect Rebar Music. You'll notice that not only is the spacing much better (like in m. 2) but the displaced 8va signs in the piano LH are in the correct places.


Vaughan

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 3:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
i appreciate your input here because this problem is preventing me from delivering a PDF copy of this piece today—deadline. (I'm delivering my handwritten copy. I write most of my material still by hand).
To verify my understanding:
1. I set up a new document altogether, for violin-piano score.
2. I set ITS only for both staves of the piano part, leaving the violin alone.

Yes, I understand that both piano staves cannot have their time signatures changed in a single step—has to be done individually, and this is what I've been doing.

One question: I just want to confirm, that you're saying by NOT switching on independent time sig. of the violin part, I will still be able to have different time signatures for violin and piano simultaneously—is this correct?

Vaughan said...
I still suspect ITS on all staves, especially when trying to export and re-import using XML. Try again what you described above in a new violin-piano document: leave the violin part alone and set both piano staves for ITS. Selecting any one of the staves and changing the time signature will do so only in that one staff. You do have to make the change per staff; you can't, for example, select both piano staves and change their TS in one go, either with the contextual menu or in the TS window.
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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 3:54 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What you did looks excellent. As you say, not only with correct placement of 8va but much more transparent looking. I dearly wish I had the knowledge to be able to do that.
I'm not familiar with "Rebar Music".
Two follow-up questions:
1. If I just switch off ITS for violin part in my existing score and switch off the "Rebar Music", will this be enough to solve problem, or must I create a new document altogether?

2. If I must create a new document, can I just copy/paste from existing score, or must I re-notate everything from scratch?

Thank you very much for your great help here.

Vaughan said...
Take a look at this version of the first document you posted. I removed ITS for the violin, at which point it resembled your second document, with overfilled measures and messed up spacing, since my action had made the violin part revert to 4/4. I then changed the time signatures of the violin part to match your original (as well as the piano part; they're not independent in this particular example). I made sure to include only the correct measure regions and to deselect Rebar Music. You'll notice that not only is the spacing much better (like in m. 2) but the displaced 8va signs in the piano LH are in the correct places.

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/25/2014 4:29:02 PM (GMT-5)

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/25/2014 5:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I tried what you suggested. It didn't work—but I'm not sure I did it correctly. I created a new document, and set the ITS for only the piano staves, leaving violin staff alone. Ran into problems in sections where violin's time signature changes. At the point of the first time signature change, the piano part became jumbled, and later in the piece, the violin part as well. I'll wait to hear from tech support.

Vaughan said...
Take a look at this version of the first document you posted. I removed ITS for the violin, at which point it resembled your second document, with overfilled measures and messed up spacing, since my action had made the violin part revert to 4/4. I then changed the time signatures of the violin part to match your original (as well as the piano part; they're not independent in this particular example). I made sure to include only the correct measure regions and to deselect Rebar Music. You'll notice that not only is the spacing much better (like in m. 2) but the displaced 8va signs in the piano LH are in the correct places.
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Vaughan
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   Posted 9/26/2014 5:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I didn't create a new document. I just changed the violin part to non-independent TS. I then needed to set the TS only of the violin part (the piano wasn't affected) correctly, as Finale had changed it all to 4/4. I did this using the TS tool, clicking on the measure(s), making sure the measure or region is correctly selected, changing the TS, and deselecting Rebar Music (which is in that window).
I haven't ever experimented with pasting or inserting (you should read up on the difference between these functions) music with ITS so I can't vouch for the results, especially when all of the voices have [unnecessarily] been set to be independent. You can better spend the time on your present document.


Vaughan

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soundartist
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   Posted 9/26/2014 9:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Understood. I tried doing what you suggested here. After I switched off Independent Time Signature for the violin, I changed the violin's TS to 9/8 from Finale default 4/4, it did affect the piano part. I will try again.
Also, the violin's TS changes a few times to begin with—it does not remain 9/8 throughout. I'm guessing that I should re-enter all of the time signature changes as written in my original score. As I said, will try your instruction again.

Vaughan said...
I didn't create a new document. I just changed the violin part to non-independent TS. I then needed to set the TS only of the violin part (the piano wasn't affected) correctly, as Finale had changed it all to 4/4. I did this using the TS tool, clicking on the measure(s), making sure the measure or region is correctly selected, changing the TS, and deselecting Rebar Music (which is in that window).
I haven't ever experimented with pasting or inserting (you should read up on the difference between these functions) music with ITS so I can't vouch for the results, especially when all of the voices have [unnecessarily] been set to be independent. You can better spend the time on your present document.
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soundartist
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   Posted 9/26/2014 10:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tried it again, didn't work. Attached is a PDF of the section where I switched from Finale's 4/4 default to my 9/8. Both the violin and piano parts got affected.
I'm extremely puzzled (and frustrated) because my only problem here has been with incorrect placement of smart shapes—and only two kinds of smart shapes: Hairpins and the Line Tool. They constantly move out of place, but they kick right back into place after just a single click onto them—this means that they remember their proper positions. Other Smart Shapes, like slurs, have never been misplaced—so far. Only those other two—hairpins and straight line. I don't understand what the connection is between smart shapes and ITS—they seem to be totally different areas from each other.

Vaughan said...
I didn't create a new document. I just changed the violin part to non-independent TS. I then needed to set the TS only of the violin part (the piano wasn't affected) correctly, as Finale had changed it all to 4/4. I did this using the TS tool, clicking on the measure(s), making sure the measure or region is correctly selected, changing the TS, and deselecting Rebar Music (which is in that window).
I haven't ever experimented with pasting or inserting (you should read up on the difference between these functions) music with ITS so I can't vouch for the results, especially when all of the voices have [unnecessarily] been set to be independent. You can better spend the time on your present document.

Post Edited (soundartist) : 9/26/2014 10:25:12 AM (GMT-5)



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