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rumsong
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   Posted 10/2/2014 1:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Greetings,

I am aware of the 'rule' that augmentation dots for second voices are moved down.

For example, in the 'Norton Manual of Music Notation' by Heussenstamm, pg. 79, he writes: "When a dotted note in the lower part is on a staff line, the dot is written in the space below the note."

Other sources can be found for this 'rule' as well.

Here's the matter:

In a Carl Fischer publication (ca. 1930) I find that this rule is NOT followed. Here is an example (re-engraved) (gif attached) of what that edition looks like.

In fact, in Frederick Lamond's edition of Beethoven Sonata Op. 101 (Breitkpf & Härtel), I can find examples of the rule being ignored. But, when I look at the 19th century Bulow editions of the same Sonata, same place, I see that the 'rule' is followed.

Can the placement be an issue of 'house style"?

What about second voice notes on ledger lines below the staff? Maybe the rule changes?


Comments welcome.

gordon
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Motet
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   Posted 10/2/2014 4:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I may well be wrong, I think maybe the rule is that if the voices are in seconds (as opposed to a second voice), e.g. an G and A on the treble clef staff, then the G's dot goes down. If the dots went below in your example, it wouldn't look good to my eye.

In any case, if the Norton thing is indeed a rule, it seems arbitrary and worth breaking.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, USB Keystation 61

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/2/2014 3:26:50 PM (GMT-5)

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Motet
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   Posted 10/2/2014 5:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Looks like I'm wrong--Finale does obey that rule, or at least has an option for it: "Adjust dot for multiple voices." I still think it's arbitrary.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, USB Keystation 61

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Peter West
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   Posted 10/2/2014 5:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In this example the G can take the dot in the F or the A space. Personally I prefer the dots to be above unless impossible (as in the case of the 2nd), but some publishers prefer 2nd voice stem down to always have the dots lowered. It is a matter that can be adjusted according to house style.

Gould in Behind Bars, (p56) says they should be lowered. They should not be positioned where they may make another voice ambiguous (e.g. G quarter note stem up, and E dotted eighth stem down _ if the dot were in the F space, quick reading might suggest the G is dotted, placing the dot lower in the D space avoids the problem. )


Peter
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rumsong
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   Posted 10/3/2014 1:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Greetings,

Thank you all for the comments.

It's interesting (I never noticed it before) this "Adjust dot for multiple voices." I find it in Document options under augmentation dots. Interestingly, in the file I created for the example, this was checked. So, Finale thought it was doing what it was supposed to do to follow this rule. Yet, the dots are not moved to the space below.

Therefore, I've tried the "Adjust dot for multiple voices" OFF. The attached tiff shows you the VERY odd results. I don't think that is right.

lol

Steven Powell gives the rule that the dots go down. (p. 48)

Kurt Stone gives the rule. (p. 125-6)

Read says (p. 115) that if the notes are 'somewhat adjacent' then the dot is moved down. He gives and example of treble clef G and B. The augmentation dot for the G is moved into the F space, not the A space. I find that an odd look.

But, this would explain why the interval of a sixth or fifth does not call for the application of the rule in the original example. The notes are far enough apart for there to be no confusion.

All best wishes,

gordon
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Motet
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   Posted 10/3/2014 1:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wonder if you manually flipped stems. Normally upsteams are layer 1, downstems layer 2.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, USB Keystation 61

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 10/3/2014 9:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The attached image makes me suspect that the dots have been moved “manually”.

I would go to the Special Tools Tool, and use the sub-tool Dot Tool to examine the dots’ position.

If you have the Message Bar (Status Bar) toggled on, it will show the dot position as (x,y) coordinates.
The default dot position is (0,0).

Peter


Mac Finale, 2011c, 2012c & 2014c, Dolet 6.4 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.3, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

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rumsong
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   Posted 10/4/2014 3:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Greetings,

I don't recall ever moving the dots manually.

What I did was take the file that gave the first image, turned off the "Adjust dot for multiple voices" and got the second file's appearance. No other actions.

It's not important, just an odd effect. Surely, something is wrong with my original file and input.

It may be that as Motet suggested, I was sloppy with voices and thus, stems. But, I do not normally use different layers for different voices if I can help it. I find it sufficient to just use two voices in a single layer. Just my preference.

The real issue remains where the dots ought to go.

All best wishes,

gordon
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