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Knut
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   Posted 10/6/2014 5:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
These days, I'm writing a thesis which is going to contain quite a lot of engraved musical examples with accompanying analysis.

Since I'm already well into the process of developing fonts for Finale, I thought I would look into making a special font for easy input of harmonic analysis. Finale's own Numerics font will go a long way for those who like Times New Roman, but it definitely has some limitations. The Finale Numerics font is also primarily designed to be used with the lyrics tool, but I would think using the chord tool would be the more logical for this kind of thing. Ideally though, a special font of this kind should be workable in a word processor with as few adjustments as possible.

While USA and the UK seems to mainly use variations of a system based on Roman numerals, parts of Europe, like Germany and Scandinavia, often use a system based on letters (or letter combinations) indicating the chordal function (like T for Tonic for example). I would love to design a font for this system as well (I don't know exactly which one I will use in my own thesis – it will likely depend on context), but since alternate bass notes in this system are indicated by numerals centred directly underneath the root/function (like T with a 3 underneath to indicate a Tonic in 1st inversion), making a workable font is quite a challenge.

I'm wondering if any of you have experience with applying this kind of analysis within Finale or in a word processor after the music has been set. What is your preferred method of input? Do you prefer any particular system (roman numerals, functional or other)? Do you have any thoughts on typographical variations, existing fonts for this purpose or any other thoughts on this issue at all, really?

Knut


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

Post Edited (Knut) : 10/6/2014 6:18:51 PM (GMT-5)

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BobRock
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   Posted 10/6/2014 7:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see you have Sibelius - various Opus Font flavors will have most of the characters you will need. In Finale I generally use Lyric Tool for tasks like yours.
Knut said...
These days, I'm writing a thesis which is going to contain quite a lot of engraved musical examples with accompanying analysis.

Since I'm already well into the process of developing fonts for Finale, I thought I would look into making a special font for easy input of harmonic analysis. Finale's own Numerics font will go a long way for those who like Times New Roman, but it definitely has some limitations. The Finale Numerics font is also primarily designed to be used with the lyrics tool, but I would think using the chord tool would be the more logical for this kind of thing. Ideally though, a special font of this kind should be workable in a word processor with as few adjustments as possible.

While USA and the UK seems to mainly use variations of a system based on Roman numerals, parts of Europe, like Germany and Scandinavia, often use a system based on letters (or letter combinations) indicating the chordal function (like T for Tonic for example). I would love to design a font for this system as well (I don't know exactly which one I will use in my own thesis – it will likely depend on context), but since alternate bass notes in this system are indicated by numerals centred directly underneath the root/function (like T with a 3 underneath to indicate a Tonic in 1st inversion), making a workable font is quite a challenge.

I'm wondering if any of you have experience with applying this kind of analysis within Finale or in a word processor after the music has been set. What is your preferred method of input? Do you prefer any particular system (roman numerals, functional or other)? Do you have any thoughts on typographical variations, existing fonts for this purpose or any other thoughts on this issue at all, really?

Knut
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Knut
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   Posted 10/6/2014 8:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks!

Sibelius indeed has some useful fonts for this. However, like the Finale Numerics font, they have limitations and shortcomings. There should be a lot of room for improvement in both scope and typography.

Knut


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/7/2014 4:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, I have been doing these for the teaching at the royal college and it is a bit pain. Why?
Because everything is very limited, and even in Sibelius.

Finale has it's own limits and all of these were a pain for me.

I tried to develop my own font for that, but simply it cannot work so easily. For that task we need an implementation of LaTeX in Finale. But it is not so easy and LaTeX is not so easy to use.
My font was designed to represent different super/sub-scripts, and i used numerous keys with Alt and Shift. After a while it was a completely confusion. Also, the font should consist of types without width (0 width) for super/sub scripts, and also the # and b symbols should be placed outside of the type's frame (or what is that called).

The harmonic analysis I did is a combination of German, Franco-Italian and US analysis; and I sometimes I ended in a very complex labyrinth of setup which was on the end unusable.
This happens particularly with numerous complex harmonies (of Ravel/Debussy) which involves "variants" and at the same time shows multiple solutions for modulation etc.

I ended up with writing by using Lyrics tool and a custom font which is not so usable actually. Probably someone with more knowledge about the types could solve this.

I would strongly recommend to do all examples by hand, since it is terribly easy to get a messy Finale document if not planned well.

As said, only solution would be using LaTeX in combination with Finale.

If you can take a screenshot of what you need maybe I could help.

O.
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Knut
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   Posted 10/7/2014 4:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks a lot, OCTO!

LaTex is something I've heard of, but never used myself. Sounds interesting.
Would you be willing to share your font? It would be interesting to see how you attempted to solve the problems you describe compared to other existing fonts like Finale Numerics or the ones included in Sibelius.

I'm not familiar with the Franco-Italian system. How is that different from the German system? As far as I know, the standard functional systems in our two countries (Sweden and Norway) are pretty similar. Did you create some sort of a hybrid system of the three (German, Franco-Italian and US), or did you use them in different contexts?

I will likely be uploading some screenshots of attempts at analysis some time in the near future. I would be very grateful if you could take a look at them. At present though, I'm still in the research/scribbling fase, and haven't done that much concrete analysis, except in my head.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

Post Edited (Knut) : 10/7/2014 4:59:09 AM (GMT-5)

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/7/2014 5:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry, I apologize. I used franco-italian system for the ear-training at the college, I just get confused.
Correct, a combination of the German, Scandinavian and US/UK style I have used.
The combination consists of:
Placing numerals on the right side of the function (german)
Functions are a combination of Main+Parallel system (UK) and as well Dominant-Mediant system (which I developed it further).

However I see a lack of control in the function naming when using the Scandinavian style. The parallel system is very limited. A very good example is the chord "df-ff-ab-cb" in c-minor which is an "impossible" function in the Scandinavian or UK system (with not allowing for enharmonic re-spelling!).

When I get more time I will complete my book in, what I call, "total harmonic analysis". Since I was educated both in West and East, I have a very good overview how it works and what can be the best solution.

...and yes, here is the font. No idea why it is called Admin? My account is called Admin, probably therefore, and it is easy to find as A is on the top.

Use it with caution, since I am not sure if it can break something... :)

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 10/7/2014 5:47:06 AM (GMT-5)



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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/7/2014 5:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anyway, if you wish to develop a font, you have to keep in mind that everything else except the function naming must have 0 width, so when you type for instance 3 under or aside, the caret would not move.

Knut said...
I would think using the chord tool would be the more logical for this kind of thing.


In my modest opinion about the Chord Tool, I think it is unusable for the task you want to do.

Read more:
forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=384510

forum.makemusic.com/?f=6&m=388651&g=388803#m388803

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 10/7/2014 5:44:47 AM (GMT-5)

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BobRock
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   Posted 10/7/2014 7:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...
Thanks a lot, OCTO!

LaTex is something I've heard of, but never used myself. Sounds interesting.
I don't quite understand what you find troublesome about Sibelius and Finale fonts. In case it is not the looks, but rather the placement limitations, then some "Tex" app will be right for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TeX_editors

These were designed to put on screen/pdf the most complex mathematic equations, hence I believe that harmonic analysis would be more than doable. Obviously, these apps usually come with own fonts, hence the rather large download size.
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/7/2014 8:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BobRock said...
In case it is not the looks, but rather the placement limitations

Yes, the placement and alternatives is the problem.
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Knut
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   Posted 10/7/2014 3:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OCTO. said...
However I see a lack of control in the function naming when using the Scandinavian style. The parallel system is very limited. A very good example is the chord "df-ff-ab-cb" in c-minor which is an "impossible" function in the Scandinavian or UK system (with not allowing for enharmonic re-spelling!).


I don't think I understand the spelling of the chord you're talking about. Is there a term for this particular chord in another analytical system?

OCTO. said...
...and yes, here is the font. No idea why it is called Admin? My account is called Admin, probably therefore, and it is easy to find as A is on the top.

Use it with caution, since I am not sure if it can break something... :)


Thank you! It hasn't broken anything yet, so that's good. I see that the base font is rather intact and vertical adjustments and dedicated analytical symbols are kept to a minimum compared to other fonts. I see you've made some ligatures that I haven't seen exact replicas of anywhere. The Capital and small capps D I assume is the same as the more standard double capital D ligature (dominant of the dominant). I've seen other such ligatures (in the Opus Function Symbols for example), which I'm not entirely sure I understand. The double capital S is one example. Does it simply mean 'subdominant of the subdominant' or is it a variation of the Ss symbol (submediant of S). What do you think of designing condensed ligatures for all functional letter combinations (Ts, Tm, Ss, Sm, Ds, Dm, Tp, Sp and so on)? Looks like you've designed a ligature for Ds in your own font.

My main concerns when planning such a font, however, are these:

Ideally, I think there should be one single font covering the whole scope of harmonic analysis (both roman numerals and functional in every main stream variation). This way there will be no overlapping characters, and you can mix the different systems without switching the font. The problem with this strategy, however, is that only a certain number of characters will be accessible through the keyboard, so many characters will have to be chosen from glyph lists. The question then becomes: Which characters should be easily accessible.

Correct spacing is the main other issue for me with most existing fonts. With meticulous kerning, one should be able to get much better results than what is out there at the moment, but this is of course very labor intensive. In any case certain compromises are unavoidable when dealing with the vertical and horizontal spacing challenges of a font for harmonic analysis, designed to be used without the aid of LaTex or similar processor. My very limited knowledge of LaTex BTW makes me question whether it's necessary to use such a complicated tool for harmonic analysis, or whether a well designed special purpose font will be more than good enough.

Knut


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/7/2014 4:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...
OCTO. said...
However I see a lack of control in the function naming when using the Scandinavian style. The parallel system is very limited. A very good example is the chord "df-ff-ab-cb" in c-minor which is an "impossible" function in the Scandinavian or UK system (with not allowing for enharmonic re-spelling!).


I don't think I understand the spelling of the chord you're talking about. Is there a term for this particular chord in another analytical system?


Sorry, I am very tired these days..
The chord I meant is following (in the inversion):



But I don't want to change the direction of the discussion.... :)

Knut said...
The double capital S is one example. Does it simply mean 'subdominant of the subdominant' or is it a variation of the Ss symbol (submediant of S). What do you think of designing condensed ligatures for all functional letter combinations (Ts, Tm, Ss, Sm, Ds, Dm, Tp, Sp and so on)? Looks like you've designed a ligature for Ds in your own font.


Approximately so it is, since it was about two years ago I actively used that font I am not sure how I was thinking than. That font is "a work in progress", I think I had another one but I lost it somehow...

I think that you can use any Unicode slot for a symbol, maybe maybe with Alt+nnnn - it is very common in Finale.

For me the biggest problem was placing the symbols around the main symbol, like 4-levels of superscripts, for instance:
9
7
4
3
, and underscript (a symbol below symbol), as it is:
T
3

And not only that but all kind of crossed symbols, or symbols with added accidental, or extension lines of different lengths;,and finally: multiple rows for modulations, or extended explanations.

I have almost changed my methodology of teaching because everything I wanted to explain would take ages to engrave.
Pencil and paper was another solution...

After many months of preparing the material for teaching and tweaking Finale I am almost sure that the software (also Sibelius) in the present form can't provide an easy solution for that. It is simple so because the notation is a complex task and function analysis as well a complex task.

There is nothing difficult in figured bas, or jazz chords - it works great for that purpose.
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/7/2014 4:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh yes! I have found another font I used! I haven't lost it, it was on a backup HDD!

Here it is:

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Knut
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   Posted 10/8/2014 6:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think all the problems you mention are solvable, at last if the number of characters is a non issue. However, if there is a goal to limit the number of characters, the task of making such a font requires a lot of planning. In any case, mapping, spacing and kerning will be very important and time consuming.

How many levels of superscript does such a font require for more complex chord structures? Is four enough or should it ideally have one for each possible third (3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13)? I'm just trying to get a sense of how comprehensive such a font needs to be.

I have a lot to learn about more complex practices of harmonic analysis. I'm familiar with the basic terminology of the functional and roman numeral systems, but some of the more advanced terminology still eludes me. Any tips on literature to use as basis for both the font and my own analysis? My thesis is about comparing romantic and impressionistic (early modernistic) harmonic (and other musical) practices, btw.

Knut

Knut


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/8/2014 7:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello Knut.
I think that creating a font that will suffice a universal harmonic analysis is - a very hard task.
Four levels of scripts would be at least something.

A cluster-like chord in BWV 54 (E-flat major):


Maybe my limited use of the font creator is the reason for that, but what I understood is that there should actually exist a tool that makes harmonic equations, but not the font. It will easy be overloaded and the way how you enter it in Finale (Alt+nnnn..) will be very inconvenient. It starts easy but after a while you get confused. Not only by that. How to enter it? Using the Lyrics tool it will make even harder process.
If there is a way to pick it and use, it would be good, but in this way it is almost on the edge of writing a programming code.
It is also important to stress that in my try to make a font that will be useful, I understood that I made a font for my own purposes. When I needed SS, I created it. And so on...


What about making graphs outside of Finale and importing it?
For instance, using MathMagic Pro you can easily create this:



Best, O.
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/8/2014 10:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here is another possibility of MathMagic:



There is a line and Demo text (I have just a demo version). Lite version can not export EPS. :(




EDIT:
p.s. accidentals are included in the software!

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 10/8/2014 10:03:42 AM (GMT-5)


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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/8/2014 10:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This one is nice too:



I am happy that I discovered this software, if I just knew it before!!!

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 10/8/2014 10:18:11 AM (GMT-5)

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Knut
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   Posted 10/8/2014 3:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You're probably right. I'm looking into MathType, which is a much less expensive program than MathMagic. These programs seem to be a better way to go than fonts for the more complex stuff. Only problem with MathType is that it doesn't support openType features, so it will just shrink the point size of the regular characters for subscript.

Since I'm so nit picky about the typography, I'm going to look into a table based solution in InDesign as well.

Knut


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to OCTO.AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
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   Posted 10/8/2014 4:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...
I have a lot to learn about more complex practices of harmonic analysis. I'm familiar with the basic terminology of the functional and roman numeral systems, but some of the more advanced terminology still eludes me.


What I teach my students is "simple": there is one force in music - dominant; and it's alternatives - mediant.
After that, any analysis is possible.


Knut said...
Any tips on literature to use as basis for both the font and my own analysis?


One very good (almost like a chemistry book, many examples in a 3D molecular vision) is Lexikon der Harmonielehre (German) by Reinhard Amon.
ISBN-13: 978-3476020826
www.bookdepository.com/Lexikon-der-Harmonielehre-Reinhard-Amon/9783476020826

It is really good.

O.
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