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Peter West
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   Posted 12/12/2014 7:35 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Doing my first substantial project in 2014 and I'm experiencing huge slow down unlike anything I've ever seen. 18 staves, classical orchestra, nothing extraordinary. (French Romantic composer) SATB chorus, no soli. All standard notation. After bar 650 it began to slow down noticeably. By bar 750 changing time signature takes 2 minutes 23 seconds, Hide or show active layer takes 1 minute 35 each, select lyrics tool, click on a note to begin entering lyrics takes 2 minutes 55 before I can begin typing.

This is a 130 page score with 18 staves!

How this will cope with some of my bigger projects, e.g. 60+ staves on 300 pages with modern notation I cannot imagine.

Do I have to go back to Finale 2010 again??? (or 2012 maybe)


Peter
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/12/2014 7:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You must report this to MM, as it's not going to get fixed without as much data as possible. It's a very weird thing, as some people get the slow-down and others don't.

Bryan D sent me a file which on his computer is brick slow, but which on mine was fine, so it's not the files in themselves. There doesn't seem to be any third-party software conflict either. There has been talk that some mice might be the problem, though that wouldn't explain slowness on MBPs just using trackpads (for some and not others).

FWIW, I installed 2012 as I had to use it for something, and the scrolling was terribly slow with massive lag. (As it always had been for me.) I had to wait for a couple of seconds for it to come to a halt after I'd stopped scrolling. But I know it works faster for others.
I wonder if MM did something to 2014 in response to sluggishness in 2012, which has caused a reversal of fortunes for those for whom 2012 wasn't slow?


"This is me helping."

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Post Edited (Wiggy) : 12/12/2014 5:57:12 AM (GMT-6)

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Peter West
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   Posted 12/12/2014 8:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm trying to gather relevant information (e.g. someone says try this and it does/doesn't work for me) before sending it to MM.

In this case I opened the Lyrics window (1 minute 15) deleted the lyrics (2'20) and immediately the problem was fixed.


Peter
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David Ward
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   Posted 12/12/2014 8:22 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've just experimented in F 2014d with a 1,900 bar, 31 stave, 315 page, 3.5 MB score in Scroll View. On my system, Show Active Layer Only is VERY slow if Automatic Music Spacing is on, but much quicker if it's not. As for changing time signatures, I'm pretty sure I brought this up in another thread. I think we discovered that if Automatic Update Layout is on, Finale checks back through the score from the beginning every time one makes a TS change. To speed things in sections with many different time signatures, I turned AUL off.

This may be specific to my system, but either way it is probably not how things should be working.

I've just tried Lyrics: same thing - v slow with AUL, much quicker without.


David Ward
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Finale 2014d with Mac 10.9.5
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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/12/2014 8:54 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter, I'm just wondering. What happens if you quit and restart Finale, then go to measure 750, select the lyrics tool and click on a note to start entering lyrics? Does it still take almost three minutes before you can begin typing? I'm trying to figure out what triggers these slowdowns, as well and, for me at least, it seems to occur with files with lyrics while I'm doing layout work. After about 30 minutes of tweaking staff positions Finale stops showing music on staves while dragging them and I know that a slowdown is imminent.


Vaughan

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Andy2000
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   Posted 12/12/2014 9:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I had this in Finale 2012 and had to move to Sibelius 7 to get that project finished. I had a little fewer staves but about that many bar. Mine also seemed to be connected to Lyrics, and deleting them helped (but was not a solution). I found if I switched between views and zoomed in and out a bit it helped for a while. Tech support said I would have to accept that as a work around because they had no idea what was going on.

Haven't had such a large project to do since moving to 2014 yet, but will be starting one in the New Year, so we'll see.


Andrew Griffiths,
Musical Director, Pianist, Composer
www.andrew-griffiths.co.uk
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Finale 2014c
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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/12/2014 9:23 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter,

Out of curiosity, was the file started entirely in 2014 or made in a previous version and opened on 2014? Or was data copied into the 2014 file?

If I start in 2014, I have found I am substantially faster. I just did a piano reduction for my daughter and just did command-N and the project worked great. Not a single issue and speed was great. Now if I pop open a previous reduction done in another version of Finale, I cannot use 2014 at all because it is too slow.

Right now I am working on a concerto with band accompaniment and although I am not experiencing the substantial delays above when I compare to 2012, it still takes a second longer to change view percentages, copying and pasting about twice as long depending upon the size of the copy and paste etc. Everything just has a lag.

I think Wiggy is right that "MM did something to 2014 in response to sluggishness in 2012" or something was added that is just not working properly. I think my older files are just not moving into Finale 2014 correctly and that is causing lots of slowdowns.

Good luck


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express and Cimarron Music
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Peter West
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   Posted 12/12/2014 11:07 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To address people's suggestions: Thanks of the input:

Turning off Auto spacing and Auto Update layout does help a lot. not ideal

restarting Finale helps a little

In fact doing both brings the speed back to normal for a while. It slows a little after about 10 bars, switching on Auto update spacing and layout grinds it back almost to a halt.

The file was started in 2014.


Peter
Music Publishing Services

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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/12/2014 11:42 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It has been discussed on this forum, probably on the Windows side, that certain operations trigger an Automatic Update Layout, among them being the Show Active Layer and Show in Concert Pitch, provided that AUL is ON.  Peter, it looks like you have found another related to lyrics.  So if AUL is ON, you will get a slowdown in large files like you are working on while the AUL process updates the entire document.  It may not be the way it should be, but until MM removes this behavior, it is what you are going to get.

[I cannot find the thread anymore, and yes I'm searching with "site:forum.makemusic.com <search string>"]


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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/12/2014 9:48:19 AM (GMT-6)

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Erin Vork
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   Posted 12/12/2014 11:51 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For people having the slowdown problems on files with Lyrics: does turning off Smart Hyphens or Smart Word Extensions change the behavior in any significant way?


Erin Vork
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MakeMusic, Inc.


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Peter West
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   Posted 12/12/2014 3:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For me it makes no difference (turning off smart hyp[hens and extensions). Turning off auto update layout fixes it instantly, about 90%, turning off auto spacing gives me the other 10%.

In fact, in a file where all the lyrics have been deleted, turning these auto spacing and update back on also causes the file to slow down, but only 5-10 second waits instead of minutes.


Peter
Music Publishing Services

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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/12/2014 3:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I reiterate my previous post.

As a test, see if "Display in Concert Pitch" and "Show Active Layer Only" also cause the same slowdown.


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/12/2014 4:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My programmer instinct is that updating the layout is implemented in perhaps a brute-force manner, doing some sort of significant processing in every frame, rather than being a bug per se. If so, then a fix would require some sort of optimizing to avoid doing unnecessary stuff, which may be a project. That it's slow for some and not others is rather mysterious, but perhaps as part of processing it's making some sort of system call related to audio or video, and the speed of that varies with hardware.

Long ago on Windows I had a version of Finale that was very slow with large files, and it turned out to be related to the sound card, even though I wasn't doing any playback! When I finally switched sound cards, it sped up.

I do suspect that MM doesn't stress-test Finale on large files as much as they should.


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David Ward
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   Posted 12/12/2014 5:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
I do suspect that MM doesn't stress-test Finale on large files as much as they should.
The file I mentioned above was described by someone at MM support as ‘extraordinarily large,’ which perhaps confirms what Motet suspects.

When I started with Finale it was usually necessary to split things into small chunks, but that is sometimes (not always) a thorough-going nuisance. With vastly improved computer power, memory and speed (and a multitude of easy back-up, including remote) this should surely no longer be necessary.

Charles Lawrence said...
As a test, see if "Display in Concert Pitch" and "Show Active Layer Only" also cause the same slowdown.
The mammoth slowdown when applying Show Active Layer Only is mentioned in Peter's original post and confirmed above in my earliest contribution to the thread. I rarely use Display in Concert Pitch, but will experiment later (tomorrow or Sunday) if no-one else responds.


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d with Mac 10.9.5
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK

Post Edited (David Ward) : 12/14/2014 4:09:28 AM (GMT-6)

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saxop
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   Posted 12/12/2014 6:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How much difference, if any, do all of the various views make (including the various page view styles)? It might help determine if this is rendering or computation.
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Peter West
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   Posted 12/14/2014 3:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles Lawrence said...
I reiterate my previous post.

As a test, see if "Display in Concert Pitch" and "Show Active Layer Only" also cause the same slowdown.


Show Active Layer and clicking a note to begin entering lyrics are the main slow downs for me. Changing to display in Concert pitch and back seem to show little problem.


Peter
Music Publishing Services

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Andy2000
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   Posted 12/14/2014 3:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm 113 bars into a 5-stave Choir & Organ piece, and moving around the page is far too laggy in page view to be any use. Gets even worse when I have a passage selected. It's unaffected by Automatic update layout, smart hyphens etc. I had this in 2012 too, and I don't know where to start looking for problems. Can anyone suggest anything?


Andrew Griffiths,
Musical Director, Pianist, Composer
www.andrew-griffiths.co.uk
Twitter:@MusicalGriff

Finale 2014c
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