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Dave Lang
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  		   Posted 5/28/2015 10:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thinking of trying to find a more "precise" way to show non swung eighths on a swing chart - rarely, but occasionally depending on what I'm up to, there may be only a pair of eighths that I want straight in a measure. The common method of writing "straight" above the measure seems a bit clumsy. While researching this tune I'm working on, I came across someone's master's thesis where they used duplets to indicate straight eighths in a transcription and thought "AHA!"

Any thoughts about how appropriate / useful this idea is? Google didn't give me a very authoritative answer - just lots of chatter back and forth.

cheers,
dave

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Post Edited (Dave Lang) : 5/28/2015 10:04:42 PM (GMT-5)

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michelp
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  		   Posted 5/29/2015 5:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Dave,

I'm not very enthusiastic about this idea. I have never seen it used for that purpose, and I can anticipate big question marks in the musicians' eyes when they'll see this. And some comments, too.
Straight (possibly with a dotted line over the very few notes which are concerned) followed by Swing is unambiguous and well accepted. Which, to me, seems to be the priority.

(Besides, a tuplet of two eight notes in the space of... two is a bit weird)

Michel
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Post Edited (michelp) : 5/29/2015 4:05:59 AM (GMT-5)

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Dave Lang
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  		   Posted 5/29/2015 1:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Michel! Had two responses now (one here and one on a big band mailing list) and both thought of better alternatives.

The other response suggested using tenuto accidentals on notes to be played straight which might be another way to go.

I saw the duplet markings on the transcription I referred to before I read the explanation and my first reaction was that it was a mistake or something to be ignored - so I think your assessment is accurate.

cheers, and thanks for the reply

dave

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Christopher Smith
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  		   Posted 5/29/2015 6:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know some jazz musicians who feel that the word "straight" is pejorative and not to be asked of jazz musicians. I kind of feel that way myself, though not to the point of being offended by it. As a result, I use the word "even" and a dotted line with a hook indicating how long the evenness should last.

Tenutos wouldn't work so well, as many jazz musicians phrase jazz 8ths tenuto anyway, and they are totally contraindicated when the 8ths should be played short (which is pretty often in the repertoire.)

Christopher Smith

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Dave Lang
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  		   Posted 5/29/2015 6:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
more interesting ideas - thanks!

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Peter Thomsen
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  		   Posted 5/29/2015 8:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have seen these symbols a few times:



Peter

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Christopher Smith
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  		   Posted 5/30/2015 1:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter, I've seen them a lot too, but the trouble is that jazz 8ths are not triplets, except at the slowest tempos. I much prefer "jazz 8ths" or "swing" (assuming of course that the style IS swing and not a more modern jazz feel!) My thoughts on the matter are that if someone is familiar with jazz performance practice, they will play it correctly if you indicate that it is to be played in jazz style. No amount of tweaking the notation will make someone "swing" convincingly who doesn't already know how (see the score to "West Side Story" for how NOT to notate jazz rhythms for classical musicians!)

As for the even 8ths question, some people write "classical 8ths" which is fine if the passage is SUPPOSED to be interpreted with classical performance practice, but often the even 8ths are still in a jazz style (the shape of staccatos is different, accents too, placement with regards to the rhythm section may be somewhat more laid back than in classical music, etc.)

Christopher Smith

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N. Grossingink
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  		   Posted 5/30/2015 7:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One of the most loved jazz recordings is "Charlie Parker with Strings". I've read that the string parts were all notated in 12/8 in an effort to get the relatively exposed string scoring to "swing".

N.

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Christopher Smith
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  		   Posted 5/30/2015 9:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I had an experience with this writing parts for a top-line string chamber orchestra accompanying a jazz group with a singer (no names to avoid embarrassment.) The musical director of the jazz group, who was the guitarist, REALLY wanted a medium swing passage of 8 bars scored with the orchestra doubling him on the melody. I wrote eighth notes on the parts, along with the indication "Swing gently - jazz eighths" and kind of scrunched up my shoulders, wincing, waiting for what the result would be. It was kind of an experiment to see if swinging a string orchestra was possible (outside of the groups that specialise in this, like a fantastic jazz string orchestra I heard in Nashville once!)

When the parts got to the orchestra, the conductor had changed all the 8ths to dotted-eighth, sixteenth slurred by two, with tenuto on the first and staccato on the second! Needless to say, it did not swing! The guitarist turned to me, eyes wide, and mouthed, "Can you fix this?" I jumped up and said, "This has to be phrased the way the guitarist is phrasing. Listen to it once." The guitarist demonstrated the passage. The first violin said, "One more time, please." and he did. Then there were a couple of short exchanges, some in French, some in Russian, some in English, and the orchestra then proceeded to play it with a swing feel that was not bad at all! All they really needed was to actually hear some jazz, which seemed to be beyond their experience until that moment. They were terrific musicians, but my worry was how to communicate the feel to them. By ear turned out to be the solution.

Christopher Smith

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Peter Thomsen
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  		   Posted 5/30/2015 11:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christopher Smith said...
Peter, I've seen them a lot too, but the trouble is that jazz 8ths are not triplets, except at the slowest tempos…

Indeed.
I suppose that that is the reason, why the “Even 8ths” symbol uses an equal sign, whereas the “Swing 8ths” symbol uses an arrow instead.
An arrow shows the direction, but not how far.

Peter

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