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twistiejoe
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   Posted 11/25/2015 2:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi guys, still getting used to this program-

When I'm entering in speedy entry, it squishes everything up so I can't actually see what I'm entering.
How do I get used to this?
What do you guys all do?
I don't understand how you enter notes when you can't actually SEE what you're doing - it squishes it up so bad.

Also, I'm still stick between weather I want to use simple or speedy entry.
Speedy seems cool, but it's BACKWARDS from what I'm used to.
Simple I also like because of the metatool shortcuts - asterix and X

But so many people are telling me to use speedy because it's more professional.
But the slight differences are so confusing.

Any advice would be great :/


Finale 2014 Full Version
Long-time Sibelius user trying to learn how to use Finale. Help me please!

Post Edited (twistiejoe) : 11/25/2015 6:17:09 AM (GMT-6)

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 11/25/2015 3:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whatever the width of the measure is before you open the Speedy window is what the width of the Speedy window will be as well. So if you have all the blank measures mushed up tight, the window will be narrow as well. This doesn't usually bother me much, but if you tap zero on the number pad, then tap it again, you exit and re-enter the Speedy window. Exiting will respace the measure (if you have auto spacing enabled, which is the default) so it will open up more space.

If you have a lot of dense measures to enter and don't want to be slowed down with the zero-zero tap, you can pre-space all the measures to be wider. In the Measure Tool, select All and double click any selected measure. The first field that is selected is Measure Width. Enter something large, like 2 (for 2 inches, but I don't know what your measurement units are set to) and hit Enter, and every measure will be set to 2 inches wide, which should be enough for many tasks. Don't worry, as soon as you respace (say, by exiting Speedy) the measures will re-adjust their width to something that it thinks is normal if you have opened and then exited a Speedy window in it.


Christopher Smith

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twistiejoe
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   Posted 11/25/2015 4:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So you're saying just make measures bigger in the first place? hmm
What about in Scroll view? Maybe it's better in scroll view? I'll try.


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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 11/25/2015 6:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...
But so many people are telling me to use speedy because it's more professional.

It's entirely personal preference. I use Simple, and will never go anywhere near Speedy Entry while I have my strength.

Go with whichever you find easiest/most useful.


"This is me helping."

Finale 2014.5, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.1)
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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/25/2015 7:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know that this is a gross oversimplification but I would compare Sibelius a bit to a word processing program like Word and Finale more to a DTP program like Indesign. Word does have layout possibilities but it makes a lot of decisions for you making it easier to use, whereas practically all of the parameters of a DPT program can be adjusted or tweaked. This makes it by definition more complex to use. This is slightly comparable to Sibelius and Finale. In any case, it seems as though you're trying to approach Finale expecting it to work the same way as Sibelius, which isn't really the most productive approach (like an organist trying to treat the piano like an organ). You should really invest the time in doing the tutorials and watching the QuickStart videos and to be methodical about the process. Just because you're fluent in one music program doesn't automatically mean that learning a new program which was built on a completely different concept is just a matter of reading a few instructions and asking a few questions on a forum. Your frustrations in getting your head around basic Finale functions attest to this. In the end, you'll save yourself a lot of time and hand-wringing this way.
As far as squishing in the Speedy Entry frame is concerned, there are several things you can do about it. First of all I'd suggest making sure that the options for scaling the SE frame (in Speedy Options) are different enough: I have a minimum of 50% and a maximum of 500%. Secondly and perhaps most important, if a measure is squished to begin with, the SE frame will also be compressed. Christopher's instructions above are good and very easy. When making a new document, you can select all the measures and give them a pleasant width (according to your own taste) in which to work.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2014.5, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.11.1
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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 11/25/2015 10:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...

But so many people are telling me to use speedy because it's more professional.


Pure BS. Use whichever one you are comfortable with.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

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Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014d, on Yosemite 10.10.4
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Mark Adler
MakeMusic, Inc.



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   Posted 11/25/2015 11:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Personally, I'm a Speedy Entry guy, but I know many very successful professional users that Simple, it truly does come down to a matter of personal preference. I encourage new users to try them both and use whichever works better for their workflow.
One of the great things about Finale 2014d and 2014.5 is that we now gather usage data from our users that opt in. One of the things I was personally most curious about was the spit between usage of Speedy and Simple. On the Mac side, it is close to a 50/50 split, marginally favoring Simple. Interestingly, the spit on the Windows side is a bit wider, closer to 60/40, again favoring Simple.


Mark F. Adler
Notation Product Manager
MakeMusic, Inc.

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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 11/25/2015 12:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mark,

Would that data show how people are inputting notes? It seems to me that if you are a good keyboard player, you might favor Speedy over Simple. I would be interested to know if the data supports that.

Also, Speedy allows "noodling" before you enter. This might show a composer/arranger vs. copyist preference, as well.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014d, on Yosemite 10.10.4
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 11/25/2015 12:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Please don't use those statistics to decide what's best for everyone. One of the reasons Simple is more common is that the documentation pushes it, and sells it as "simple" (it's anything but, certainly no simpler than Speedy). Speedy is much faster for some things, like entering mixed rhythms on the same pitch, but not as speedy as Simple for successive odd tuplets. Etc.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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twistiejoe
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   Posted 11/25/2015 1:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
I know that this is a gross oversimplification but I would compare Sibelius a bit to a word processing program like Word and Finale more to a DTP program like Indesign. Word does have layout possibilities but it makes a lot of decisions for you making it easier to use, whereas practically all of the parameters of a DPT program can be adjusted or tweaked. This makes it by definition more complex to use. This is slightly comparable to Sibelius and Finale. In any case, it seems as though you're trying to approach Finale expecting it to work the same way as Sibelius, which isn't really the most productive approach (like an organist trying to treat the piano like an organ). You should really invest the time in doing the tutorials and watching the QuickStart videos and to be methodical about the process. Just because you're fluent in one music program doesn't automatically mean that learning a new program which was built on a completely different concept is just a matter of reading a few instructions and asking a few questions on a forum. Your frustrations in getting your head around basic Finale functions attest to this. In the end, you'll save yourself a lot of time and hand-wringing this way.
As far as squishing in the Speedy Entry frame is concerned, there are several things you can do about it. First of all I'd suggest making sure that the options for scaling the SE frame (in Speedy Options) are different enough: I have a minimum of 50% and a maximum of 500%. Secondly and perhaps most important, if a measure is squished to begin with, the SE frame will also be compressed. Christopher's instructions above are good and very easy. When making a new document, you can select all the measures and give them a pleasant width (according to your own taste) in which to work.


Vaughn I'm having trouble understanding this but I would like to understand because your signature says you're a Sibelius user also, I think? I have no idea what a DTP program is so I don't understand that and I haven't heard of "Indesign." I feel like many Finale users ASSUME that Sibelius can't do many of the things they want it to but I have found that the case is that it's NOT TRUE. I can do rverything I have seen in a Finale score, and three are several things that I NEED to be able to do in Finale which all experts have told me are not possible in Finale. But no point getting bogged down in that, I take your point about getting my head around it but I have in fact watched all of the quick start tutorials and I'm still having trouble. Apparently part of it is that I am experiencing many bugs. I will stick with it but man its a struggle. Any more advice?


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Long-time Sibelius user trying to learn how to use Finale. Help me please!

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twistiejoe
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   Posted 11/25/2015 2:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Please don't use those statistics to decide what's best for everyone. One of the reasons Simple is more common is that the documentation pushes it, and sells it as "simple" (it's anything but, certainly no simpler than Speedy). Speedy is much faster for some things, like entering mixed rhythms on the same pitch, but not as speedy as Simple for successive odd tuplets. Etc.


Exactly! I hate that there are things that are faster in one and not in the other, like tuplets- so much faster in simple! Why do they have to make it so difficult and confusing - why can't there just be ONE way? What on earth could the advantage be of having two???


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 11/25/2015 2:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think it's historic. I don't see much of a problem, though. It would be nice to improve both methods in the areas in which they're deficient.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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saxop
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   Posted 11/25/2015 3:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...


But so many people are telling me to use speedy because it's more professional.


It comes down completely to what type of music you are entering and whether or not you are using a MIDI keyboard.

If you are using a MIDI keyboard and your music includes lots of chords (not chord symbols), Speedy will likely allow you to make fewer mistakes and ultimately go faster.

If you are using a MIDI keyboard and composing on the fly, wanting to experiment with notes before laying them down, Speedy's model is far friendlier.

If you are not using a MIDI keyboard, but you are entering a line with varying rhythms on the same pitch (as Motet described), Speedy is faster.

If you are using a MIDI keyboard to enter mostly single pitch lines or layers (like in an orchestral score), Simple can usually be faster, though Speedy has a mode that emulates some of Simple's advantages here.

If you are not using a MIDI keyboard and are entering lines of music with changing pitches, Simple is much faster. If the music has chords, Simple's advantage becomes very large.


Depending on the music, a MIDI keyboard with either entry mode may or may not be faster than Simple without a MIDI keyboard. If the music has many jumps or chords, the MIDI keyboard will win. If not, the advantages of having your hands on the computer keyboard with access to shortcuts and navigation may allow Simple with QWERTY entry to be faster.
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Motet
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   Posted 11/25/2015 4:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
saxop said...
...the advantages of having your hands on the computer keyboard with access to shortcuts and navigation may allow Simple with QWERTY entry to be faster.

Don't forget Speedy's MIDI modifier keys, which allow you to specify durations and ties with MIDI keys. With the help of third-party software, I have dedicated the lowest octave of the MIDI keyboard to this concept and extended it to other functions as well, such as entering triplets, enharmonic flips, cautionary accidentals, grace notes, enharmonic spelling defaults, clarinet transposition, and navigation back and forth, so I don't need the QWERTY keyboard or keypad all that often. By having a Shift and an Alt MIDI key, I can get a lot of functions out of those dozen or so keys.

Also, I can either hold down an "eighth note" (e.g.) key and enter a bunch of eighth notes by playing different pitches, or hold down a single pitch and enter various durations.

It all works pretty well, but there are occasional timing problems, so I'd love to see something like this integrated into Finale one day.


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Post Edited (Motet) : 11/25/2015 3:49:59 PM (GMT-6)


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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/26/2015 3:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...
...I hate that there are things that are faster in one and not in the other, like tuplets- so much faster in simple! Why do they have to make it so difficult and confusing - why can't there just be ONE way? What on earth could the advantage be of having two???

Having two input methods which cater to the widely varying needs of a large number of users is actually a luxury. Saxop's list of the advantages of both methods is very good. I use Speedy because I'm handy entering notes with a MIDI keyboard and because I sometimes like to try things out as I'm entering. BTW, tuplets aren't necessarily 'so much faster in simple'. If you work in MIDI step input mode, you can set up note values and tuplet definitions and play away to your heart's content. MIDI input mode is accessed when you have Speedy set for Use MIDI Device for Input and if you press CapsLock. Any number key you select for a particular note value is 'remembered' and you can play in any speed or rhythm and the notes will be entered in that note value. Same with tuplets. If you need a string of eighth note triplets, press CapsLock, press Alt-3 (for the triplet), press 4 (for eighth notes) and just play until you need another note value.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2014.5, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.11.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB

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twistiejoe
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   Posted 11/26/2015 4:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Okay I sill need more help with this.
this is driving me CRAZY guys.

ANYWAY. This is what I mean.

http://postimg.org/image/ick38qw1v/

I can't SEE what I'm typing here in this pic- do you see this pic? I've uploaded it.
PLEASE HELP ME I hate that I can't see what I'm doing!

Thanks!

http://postimg.org/image/ick38qw1v/


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Long-time Sibelius user trying to learn how to use Finale. Help me please!

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Skjalg
Accordion man



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   Posted 11/26/2015 5:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...
Hi guys, still getting used to this program-

I don't understand how you enter notes when you can't actually SEE what you're doing - it squishes it up so bad.
/


We've done the tutorials.


Skjalg Bjørstad, Norway

_____________________________________________

Finale 3.0.6 > 2014d, Macbook Pro OS X Yosemite (10.10.3), 8 gB RAM, 750 gB, Garritan JABB, GPO full version, Garritan COMB, Komplete 8 (Kontakt 5 etc.); Akai MPK mini, M-audio KeyStation 88es, Yamaha CP-33, PreSonus AudioBox USB, Logic Pro X A live recording here.

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 11/26/2015 6:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...
Okay I sill need more help with this.
this is driving me CRAZY guys.

ANYWAY. This is what I mean.

http://postimg.org/image/ick38qw1v/

I can't SEE what I'm typing here in this pic- do you see this pic? I've uploaded it.
PLEASE HELP ME I hate that I can't see what I'm doing!

Thanks!

http://postimg.org/image/ick38qw1v/

Read my original responses. Both will help you.


Christopher Smith

Mac Mini (Late 2014) 2.8 Ghz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM
OSX Yosemite 10.10.5
Finale 2014.5
or
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OSX Yosemite 10.10.5
Finale 2014.5

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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/26/2015 10:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Come on, twistiejoe, several of us have taken the trouble to provide you with a number of ways of dealing with this, both for the easy preparation for entering notes if measures are too narrow, as wel as advice for different input methods.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2014.5, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.11.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB

Amsterdam

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 11/26/2015 11:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Skjalg said...
twistiejoe said...
Hi guys, still getting used to this program-

I don't understand how you enter notes when you can't actually SEE what you're doing - it squishes it up so bad.
/


We've done the tutorials.


+1!


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Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
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twistiejoe
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   Posted 11/28/2015 3:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christopher Smith said...
Whatever the width of the measure is before you open the Speedy window is what the width of the Speedy window will be as well. So if you have all the blank measures mushed up tight, the window will be narrow as well. This doesn't usually bother me much, but if you tap zero on the number pad, then tap it again, you exit and re-enter the Speedy window. Exiting will respace the measure (if you have auto spacing enabled, which is the default) so it will open up more space.

If you have a lot of dense measures to enter and don't want to be slowed down with the zero-zero tap, you can pre-space all the measures to be wider. In the Measure Tool, select All and double click any selected measure. The first field that is selected is Measure Width. Enter something large, like 2 (for 2 inches, but I don't know what your measurement units are set to) and hit Enter, and every measure will be set to 2 inches wide, which should be enough for many tasks. Don't worry, as soon as you respace (say, by exiting Speedy) the measures will re-adjust their width to something that it thinks is normal if you have opened and then exited a Speedy window in it.


Christopher thanks for this solution.
However, it's not great, because whenever I update layout it's all reset back to the original setting so it doesn't last. And I can't go adjusting that setting EVERY time I want to enter notes!
What I might just do is set less measures per page when I'm entering notes... does that sound logical? I think I'm getting used to it ... sort of lol.


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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/28/2015 6:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The width of unused measure stacks will only change if you've entered a measure with the Speedy Entry Tool or changed a key and/or a time signature AND you have Automatic Music Spacing turned on. Most of us either leave it turned off except for entering notes after a document has been set up or if we have an easy way of toggling the setting on and off.

BTW, Finale's use is greatly enhanced and simplified by using keyboard shortcuts, many of which are built in or which you can create yourself in the OS. Most of us use macro programs which can access anything, change a number of parameters in one go or, for example, toggle AMS on or off. A macro for changing enharmonic spelling from Favor Sharps, Favor Flats and Use Spelling Tables is very handy when entering notes.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2014.5, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.11.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 11/28/2015 8:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...

What I might just do is set less measures per page when I'm entering notes... does that sound logical? I think I'm getting used to it ... sort of lol.


Oh, well I don't enter notes in Page view. To many problems with that for me (especially, no Update Layout to worry about in Scroll!) I enter in Scroll View and only worry about layout once everything is entered. This was a brilliant feature, in my opinion, that I took to from day 1 back in version 3. I always had laid my score pages out in a row on a table, and to be able to do the same thing on a computer screen seamlessly just made sense to me.


Christopher Smith

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OSX Yosemite 10.10.5
Finale 2014.5
or
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