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John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/29/2015 3:38 PM (GMT -5)

Is there a text font that closely resembles the numbers in Maestro nos. 48-57 in the Articulation Designer>Main>Symbol Selection? I am trying to use these numbers (or something like it) for first and second endings, but the periods are placed in the middle of the character rather than in the standard place.

Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/29/2015 4:10 PM (GMT -5)

An articulation seems like the wrong tool, and that may be why it's centered. You might have better results with a text expression positioned relative to the barline.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014.5 demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/29/2015 4:23 PM (GMT -5)

Also, in Document Options > Fonts > Text > Ending Repeat, you should be able to set the size of the Maestro numbers there. You shouldn't have any problems with the period, I'd bet.

N.

OSX 10.8.5
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work
Finale 2014.5

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

(when the harp didn't play the 2nd chord):
“It's not that slow.”

–conductor Sixten Ehrling

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/29/2015 5:05 PM (GMT -5)

Sorry, i wasn't clear. I wasn't using an articulation, Motet, I was using N.s standard method. I was just trying to describe the specific characters I was using.

Anyway, here is what I get with the standard method. Apparently Maestro characters are oriented around their centers. I think I need another font.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 12/29/2015 3:10:49 PM (GMT-6)

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N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/29/2015 6:48 PM (GMT -5)

Here is New Century Schoolbook.

N.

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John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/29/2015 7:26 PM (GMT -5)

Thanks N. It looks nice but is not close enough to the Maestro numbers, unfortunately. If I don't find one like Maestro, I may have to put stacc. articulation marks after the Maestro numbers. Good grief!

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/29/2015 7:33 PM (GMT -5)

John Ruggero,

If you are willing to try (= spend money on) a third party font, take a look at the font Piano Keybuild Regular.

Link:
/www.myfonts.com/fonts/typeminds/piano-keybuild-tm/piano-keybuild-tm/

Peter

Mac Finale, 2012c, 2014d & 2014.5, Dolet 6.6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

Andreo Basisto
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2011
Total Posts : 125

Posted 12/29/2015 8:10 PM (GMT -5)

Greetings John!

I too wanted a better font for the 1st and 2nd time ending numbers and eventually used Stencil at 18 point. Go to Document Options > Fonts > Text > Ending Repeat > Set Font. This may help! (I don't bother with the dot after the number, though. I can't see it's really essential!)

Andreo Basisto

=======================================================

Finale 3.1, 98, 2000, 2011

win XP

File Attachment :
1st, 2nd time numbers font.pdf 35KB (application/pdf)

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John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/29/2015 8:23 PM (GMT -5)

Dear Peter, they look good. But can I put a period after them that sits on the bottom line?

Dear Andreo, that is a very creative solution. I never would have thought of that font, which is indeed does look like a modern version of the Maestro numbers. But I need something that is very traditional, i.e. I just need the Maestro font to do what I want it to do, which is allow a dot on the line after it.

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/29/2015 9:19 PM (GMT -5)

John Ruggero said...
Dear Peter, they look good. But can I put a period after them that sits on the bottom line?…

To make things clear:
The dot alway sits on the baseline, also in Maestro.

The problem with the Maestro font is that the number glyphs do not sit on the baseline.
Instead they are “centered” around the baseline, going equally above and below.
This glyph positioning is not by mistake, but rather by design, since it makes the Maestro work well for time signatures in Finale (= the number gets centered around a staff-line.

Now for your question:
As Far As I Can Tell, there are only 67 glyphs in the font Piano Keybuild Regular, and the period character is not included (sorry!).

The period character should be placed in character slot #46, since that slot is the default character slot for a period character in text fonts.

What you can do:

1) Purchase the font (5 $), and ask Type Minds for a period character added to the font, in slot #46.

2) Purchase the font (5 $), and add the period character to the font yourself, using a font editor.

Peter

Mac Finale, 2012c, 2014d & 2014.5, Dolet 6.6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 12/29/2015 9:26 PM (GMT -5)

John,

When using the Maestro font, if you must have the period, which I would prefer as well, the only solution I can find is to bring up the "Edit Ending..." dialog and remove the text in the "Ending Number(s):" box for both the 1st and 2nd endings. You also must turn off showing the period in Document Options - Repeats. Then recreate the numbers and period using measure attached text blocks, where the font is Maestro and the size is 18. This way, you can select only the period in the text, and apply a "Baseline Shift..." of -0.03125. That will bring it down to look about right. You may need to adjust the shift, as well as reposition the numbers and size to suit your taste. It's a kludge, for sure, but it works.

BTW: I cannot explain why the period remains centered, even if you select a different font, such as TNR, just for it.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 10586)

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32638 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory, 17514.37 Gigabytes Usable Hard Drive Capacity
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Finale 2014.5.6359
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Sharpeye 2.68, PhotoScore Ultimate 7.0.2, SmartScore X2 Pro 10.5.8

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/29/2015 7:41:38 PM (GMT-6)

File Attachment :
MaestroEndings.mus 40KB (application/octet-stream)

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John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/29/2015 10:53 PM (GMT -5)

Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I am going to create the 1. and 2. as Expressions adapting Charles Lawrence's idea. The baseline shift that seems to work is -.06 for 18 pt Maestro numbers with TNR regular periods.

Peter, as you said, the period sits right; it's the number hangs below. (It's what I meant by the Maestro numbers being oriented around their centers.) Since I want the numbers to match the meter numbers, I am going to just go with the Maestro, as nice as the others look and as tempting as it is to do a little font editing now that I am getting into that. (See Notat.io thread "My Clef".)

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 12/29/2015 9:01:31 PM (GMT-6)

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 12/30/2015 1:07 AM (GMT -5)

Whether you use measure attached Text Blocks or Expressions is a matter of personal choice, IMHO. It's a kludge workaround either way. The only possible advantage to expressions is you can create a category for these where you can use category positioning and score lists, but I could not come up with a good horizontal positioning selection.

I would change the Edit->Measurement Units to EVPUs so the Baseline Shift is more manageable. I do think it best to have the number in Maestro 18 and the period in TNR 18. If using text blocks the number's Baseline Shift looks good at +8 EVPUs, whereas, if using expressions it looks good at +17 EVPUs, both positive numbers, not negative. I cannot explain why one would be different than the other in this regard!

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 10586)

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"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/30/2015 8:26 AM (GMT -5)

Thanks, Charles, EPUs are easier to remember and 17 does seem to be the magic number.

First and endings do seem to be a mess, if one wants them to look standard. Along with inserting the numbers as expressions or TBs, one must to deal with or get rid of the Back Ending Brackets that Finale insists on making and adjusting the the hooks vertically and horizontally for every bracket. Something so simple has been made a nightmare.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/30/2015 1:38 PM (GMT -5)

For me, if I had to use Maestro, I would enter the numbers without the period, and then create a Repeat Text for the period. That way, it always moves with the number if the bars respace. If you need to manually move the number, select the handle for the repeat text dot as well so they move together. A usable workaround.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 12/30/2015 2:53 PM (GMT -5)

Yes Zuill, that is perhaps the easiest workaround so far proposed. Nice tip.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 10586)

3.50 gigahertz Intel Core i7-5930K, Multi-core (6 total), Hyper-threaded (12 total)

32638 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory, 17514.37 Gigabytes Usable Hard Drive Capacity
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 - 4GB [Display adapter]

Finale 2014.5.6359
Garritan GPO4.02

Cakewalk SONAR X3 - (X3e build 244) - x64, Sound Forge Audio Studio 10.0, Audacity 2.1.0
Sharpeye 2.68, PhotoScore Ultimate 7.0.2, SmartScore X2 Pro 10.5.8

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/31/2015 12:04 PM (GMT -5)

Zuill said:

"I would enter the numbers without the period, and then create a Repeat Text for the period…"

That is another very clever way to do it, but I am not clear as to why it would be easier or better than simply entering a pre-existing Expression, which also moves with respacing.

And when I actually tried it, the period gets further or closer to the Maestro number depending on the width of the measure to the point that it must be readjusted every time the layout changes.

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 12/31/2015 12:11 PM (GMT -5)

John Ruggero said...
...the period gets further or closer to the Maestro number depending on the width of the measure...

A subtlety I suspect Zuill did not notice. The expression workaround is probably the best, but maybe not the easiest to setup. Did you try to use a category for automatic positioning?

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 10586)

3.50 gigahertz Intel Core i7-5930K, Multi-core (6 total), Hyper-threaded (12 total)

32638 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory, 17514.37 Gigabytes Usable Hard Drive Capacity
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 - 4GB [Display adapter]

Finale 2014.5.6359
Garritan GPO4.02

Cakewalk SONAR X3 - (X3e build 244) - x64, Sound Forge Audio Studio 10.0, Audacity 2.1.0
Sharpeye 2.68, PhotoScore Ultimate 7.0.2, SmartScore X2 Pro 10.5.8

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/31/2015 12:21 PM (GMT -5)

Then I guess I should withdraw my suggestion. I don't mind things moving as my final go-round is used for adjusting these things. But a workaround should be as user friendly as possible, I guess.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

pgburrucker
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2000
Total Posts : 300

Posted 12/31/2015 3:00 PM (GMT -5)

When setting this up, instead of typing a period, try typing"k"; it's another way to produce a dot in Maestro, and the placement might be better for you.

Paul B.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/31/2015 3:59 PM (GMT -5)

That's even higher up than the other dot.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/31/2015 5:10 PM (GMT -5)

Charles, Thank you for your excellent suggestion. I now have the 1. and 2. in their own category set to vertical and horizontal click position, i.e. I'm eye-balling it. This seems to be the only good setting unless someone has a trick up their sleeves. And is it possible to set the hook length on the brackets? I saw nothing in the Document Options. That would be the biggest time-saver of all.

Paul, if you mean setting up the 1. and 2. in theText Expression Designer, the k seems to be worse. It appears to place the period even higher than typing a period.

Zuill, thank you for your suggestion which called attention to a capability that I had never explored and could come in handy for another application.

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/31/2015 9:24 PM (GMT -5)

John Ruggero said...
…is it possible to set the hook length on the brackets? I saw nothing in the Document Options…

It is a little hidden:
Document Options > Repeats
Click the button “Repeat Endings…”.

Peter

PS
In the attached screen shot the Measurement Units are Points.

Mac Finale, 2012c, 2014d & 2014.5, Dolet 6.6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

Image Attachment :

RepeatEndings.jpg 31KB (image/jpeg)

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John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/31/2015 10:11 PM (GMT -5)

Thanks so much, Peter. That made my day.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/31/2015 10:35 PM (GMT -5)

"Length of front hook" controls both hooks your normally see. "Back hook" would add one to a final ending, or in the middle of a two-bar ending, so I don't know what you would ever set that to anything but 0.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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