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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/29/2016 3:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was doing some experimenting with MuseScore and Sibelius by engraving the attached measure. Both programs are able to position the bass clef after the time signature and before the initial rest without it affecting the initial treble clef.

Finale does not seem to be able to do this without a work-around: inserting the mid-measure clef AFTER the rest, and then switching the positions of both. When I tried to put the mid-measure bass clef before the rest, the opening treble clef immediately became a bass clef.

Am I missing a setting that would accomplish this more naturally in Finale?


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.


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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 1/29/2016 3:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would use the Measure Tool to add "Space at Beginning of Measure". Looks like about 2 1/2 - 3 spaces would do it.

Does that make a difference?

N.


OSX 10.8.5
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work
Finale 2014.5

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
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• "It should be the emigrated Loch Ness." (to the basses)
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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/29/2016 4:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, N. I inserted 3 spaces and then 10 spaces and neither worked. In fact, I don't think any amount of space will do it.

If I try to insert the bass clef before rest by selecting the first 1/8 rest (which does include all the space around it including the extra space), it changes the initial treble clef to a bass clef. If I enter the bass clef later in the measure and move it left, the moment it crosses the 1/8 rest, the initial treble clef becomes a bass clef!

The same thing happens with any measure, actually. Finale does not seem to allow an initial clef and a mid-measure clef to stand side-by-side. The mid-measure clef either changes the initial clef if it is different or is absorbed into if it is the same, the moment the mid-measure clef passes in front of the first note or rest in the measure.

This is no problem in any measure but the first, where it is not uncommon in piano music for the initial clefs to be the common treble and bass to show the grand staff, but then for there to be an immediate change to another clef as in the example; the time signature being the buffer between the two clefs.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 1/29/2016 5:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For what it's worth, Ms. Gould says to forget the treble clef in this situation.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 1/29/2016 5:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To make this layout work you must have a duration before the clef change.

Any duration will do, so a 1/4096 rest is enough:
Give the first measure a time signature of 1/4096 + 2/4, displaying as 2/4.
A 1/4096 rest is so little that you won't notice anything during playback.

See the attached Finale 2014 document where I have used a 1/256 rest.
Can you hear the 1/256 rest?
smilewinkgrin

By The Way:
In the example you attached, the secondary beam break is wrong.
You should also break the 16th note beam.

Peter


Mac Finale, 2012c, 2014d & 2014.5, Dolet 6.6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM



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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/29/2016 5:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And my opinion being worth even less, I agree with Ms. Gould!



Mike Rosen
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Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
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FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 1/29/2016 6:31 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
And my opinion being worth even less, I agree with Ms. Gould!

Are you referring to displaying a clef change at the beginning of a document, or to my comment about wrong/correct secondary beam breaks?

On page 7 Ms. Gould says:
“The practice of retaining the most commonly used clef at the beginning of the stave while inserting a new clef after it, is obsolete. This includes the very start of a piece”.

On page 156 Ms. Gould says:
“The number of beams separating the groups is equal to the duration of the groups they separate”.

Peter


Mac Finale, 2012c, 2014d & 2014.5, Dolet 6.6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

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Motet
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   Posted 1/29/2016 7:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I never thought much about the secondary beam breaks before, but that makes sense, since it's two subdivided eighth notes, not two subdivided sixteenth notes.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/29/2016 7:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank you all for your help.

I was mostly interested in knowing if Finale is capable of doing this without a workaround for comparison purposes, and I guess it is not. Simply swapping the clef and rest seems easiest to me as a work-around.

Gould, of course, is referring to contemporary engraving practices. Some who do authentic editions often adhere to the original notation, which sometimes includes "obsolete" notation like the initial clefs and the secondary beam breaks in my example.

However in this case, I was following a contemporary critical edition, the New Liszt Complete Edition (Baerenreiter—Editio Musica Budapest). The incipit is visible at IMSLP where one sees that the secondary beam breaks do not adhere to Gould's idea of what is correct. Several other editions at IMSPL do the same. The clefs are also as in my example.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Hungarian_Rhapsody_No.13,_S.244/13_(Liszt,_Franz)

Personally, I do not always break through to the 1/8th beam level, as logical as G.'s reasoning seems, because it breaks up the music too much in certain circumstances. In my opinion, a group of eight 32nds should sometimes not be broken, sometimes broken to the 16th and sometimes broken to the 1/8th beam. That gives three visual variations to suit the music. (Incidentally, the New Liszt Edition breaks through to both 1/8th and 16th levels on the very first line of music. And the Paderewski edition shows all three versions on the first line.)

However, I am referring to solo and chamber music. In orchestral parts, I think it best if Gould's rule be observed for ALL instances of eight 32nd notes.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 1/29/2016 5:49:07 PM (GMT-6)

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Zuill
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   Posted 1/30/2016 3:09 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've used an extra measure at the start o a document for this purpose. It is the easiest way for me. I have to do it so rarely that it is hardly worth worrying about.

Zuill


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/30/2016 11:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter Thomsen said...
Mike Rosen said...
And my opinion being worth even less, I agree with Ms. Gould!

Are you referring to displaying a clef change at the beginning of a document, or to my comment about wrong/correct secondary beam breaks?

On page 7 Ms. Gould says:
“The practice of retaining the most commonly used clef at the beginning of the stave while inserting a new clef after it, is obsolete. This includes the very start of a piece”.

On page 156 Ms. Gould says:
“The number of beams separating the groups is equal to the duration of the groups they separate”.

Peter


The clef!



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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