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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/26/2016 11:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Does anyone have a minute to explain to me the seemingly illogical 'logic' behind Finale and how to change things enharmonically?
I prefer to use Speedy Entry, and I press 9, but the most difficult thing is getting it to change ONE note without changing others.
OR changing ALL the notes in a logical way.
I know there are different enharmonic settings, and I use them, but sometimes they also don't make sense. I have "favour sharps on" but I'm trying to write an F#Major7 chord, so F#A#C#E#, but of course it insists on making the E# and F natural.
Another option I tried was "default spelling" which means it is written as a GbMaj7 chord.
I would ASSUME that if I put the cursor way up above in speedy and press 9, it would chane EVERYTHING enharmonicall, which is what I want, but alas, NO, Finale changes one note at a time, and I keep pressing 9 until it cycles randomly through all these different options until I FINALLY have the right one.
Do I have a setting wrong?
What am I not getting?
Do I just have to keep pressing 9 over and over and over until I get the chord I want? Then if I want the chord repeated over and over it takes me forever.
Hope someone can help me as you can see I'm pretty confused and frustrated with this ...
Thanks!


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Zuill
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   Posted 4/27/2016 12:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There are many variables. First off, the key you are in has a lot to do with how the chord is spelled. Regarding pressing 9, put the cursor on the note you want to change and press9. Only that note will change.

I've been doing this so long that I quickly get what I want when I want it. Maybe there's just a learning curve that I'm well beyond.

Zuill


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 12:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is there absolutely no way to make an entire chord change all at once?
I suppose I have to use the RESPELL thing, as long as I have sharps selected?
Mind you I did that but I still had the E# spelt as F natural so I ended up having to do that manually,
And if I have the cursor SLIGHTLY out of place which I find VERY easy to do, then it screws everything up.

Something that should take almost no time keeps taking so long because it is so complicated and not very user friendly


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Post Edited (twistiejoe) : 4/27/2016 12:34:39 AM (GMT-5)

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Zuill
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   Posted 4/27/2016 12:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I guess I've just gotten used to it. I've done so many projects over 20 years that I couldn't possibly done with any other program, so I'm counting my blessings.

Zuill


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 12:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's how I was with Sibelius. Now I have to use both ...


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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 4/27/2016 12:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...
Is there absolutely no way to make an entire chord change all at once?

Certainly, in SimpleEntry, you can select an entire chord all at once and then change the enharmonics. I don't use Speedy, so don't know if it's possible.

Alternatively, if you are having constant trouble with the MIDI keyboard entering the wrong enharmonic, then set up a Spelling Table that fits your music, or add keyboard shortcuts to the Favor Sharps and Favor Flats menu items, so that you can switch between them easily before you hit the note.


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Zuill
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   Posted 4/27/2016 1:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I tried in Simple, and selecting the whole chord and using the \ key doesn't change all the notes at once to it's enharmonic. It does what Speedy does, it toggles through a myriad of combinations until you arrive at the one you want. I think what is wanted is to change all flats to all sharps in one key press. I don't know that Simple can do that either.

Zuill


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 1:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yep I discovered that too. :/


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 1:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Curious question -
would selecting "Keyless" - which I've decided to use in THIS case help?
Obviously if I want to write in a key signature, which I often do for some pop charts, this will be a problem still ... hmm


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Motet
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   Posted 4/27/2016 11:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For something like E# where you don't have a compatible key signature, it might be better to get in the habit of entering an E natural and then pressing the + key.


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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 4/27/2016 12:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
I tried in Simple, and selecting the whole chord and using the \ key doesn't change all the notes at once to it's enharmonic. It does what Speedy does, it toggles through a myriad of combinations until you arrive at the one you want. I think what is wanted is to change all flats to all sharps in one key press. I don't know that Simple can do that either.

Ah. So it does.

In which case, you select the chord with the Selection Tool, and Respell Notes, after favouring sharps or flats.

My other point about having an appropriate Spelling Table or switching between sharps and flats beforehand, in order to avoid this trouble, stands.


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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 4/27/2016 1:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I hate messing around up in the menus for enharmonic spelling preferences, so I would enter an Fmaj7 chord, then hit + before entering the next item. It affects all entries, and is bulletproof as far as the stupid bug where enharmonic flipped with the 9 key change back when you're not looking.


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 3:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, except I would have to manually change each note one by one, right?
As far as I know Finale doesn't have a filter or other option that allows you to select more than one note at a time...
(Unless you want to move diatonically like in the selection tool, but that's no help here unfortunately)


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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 4/27/2016 3:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...
Yeah, except I would have to manually change each note one by one, right?
As far as I know Finale doesn't have a filter or other option that allows you to select more than one note at a time...
(Unless you want to move diatonically like in the selection tool, but that's no help here unfortunately)

If it's such a recurrent problem, and "toggling the favor", or setting up a spelling table beforehand, or Respelling Notes afterwards don't work, then perhaps it would be easier to enter those notes with the computer keyboard?


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 4:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christopher - what are you doing exactly and in what order? I'm not sure how you're doing it.
I often enter passages, particularly rhythmic ones with speedy but don't worry about the notes, then I go back over and use the respell simple entry function because that seems faster to me, but the enharmonic changing can be a nightmare. Further more I have to keep going back and forth between speedy and simple which is stupid. I wish you could do something like respell without having to exit speedy.


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Zuill
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   Posted 4/27/2016 5:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You mention the Simple Respell function, but I think you mean the Repitch function. Are you using a MIDI keyboard?

Zuill


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 5:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well I mean BOTH! I use both respell in simple, and I use Repitch, AND I use a midi keyboard.
So convoluted in Finale, to me.


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Zuill
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   Posted 4/27/2016 5:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The reason I asked is because Speedy has the same respell (enharmonic) feature, unless you are talking about something else. Speedy can also respell chords using the enter key. In other words, with the cursor on a certain note, hold the MIDI keys and press Enter, and the notes become the notes you are holding down.

If I play a chord and get some of the notes a different harmonic, I position the cursor on the note to change and press 9. If I'm off all the notes, as you have observed, you have to toggle between many options. I often quickly go through my entries then go back and spot clean up those enharmonics. If you have 4 quarter note chords in a measure, and all of them have the same enharmonic change, when on the first note, pressing ctrl-9 changes them all.

There are other tricks. Jari's JW Change Pitches plugin can be useful as well. You can even memorize sets that you will use again in the future.

Zuill


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 5:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OH MY GOD Zuill that is an AMAZING feature I had no idea about THANK YOU!
Man this program can be complex.
The main think I find REALLY difficult to get my head around is TWO different sets of slightly different and CONFLICTING shortcuts -
like if you're in Simple and you want to change something enharmonically, which you might want to do in a different layer, you have to press '\' but that is re-beam in Speedy - same for the conflicting shorcuts for '=' between speedy and simple.
I really like the re-spell feature in simple because it's a quick way to enter new voicings and things when rhythms are already set, particularly in something rhythmically repetitive.
Anyway I'll keep working on it, thanks.


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Vaughan
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   Posted 4/27/2016 6:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
twistiejoe said...
... I often enter passages, particularly rhythmic ones with speedy but don't worry about the notes ...

Wouldn't it be better to consider what you're entering while you're entering it than to have to correct everything after the fact? I have easy keystrokes for changing enharmonic spelling from favor sharps to favor flats to using spelling tables, so by the time I've entered the notes, I seldom have to make enharmonic changes. There are always difficult situations which require alteration but there are many ways to minimise the amount of correction needed. If you want F#-A#-C#-E# and the key signature is a key with at least as many sharps as B major, Finale will spell it correctly with Use Spelling Tables selected. If in a key signature like G major, D major, A major or E major, you set the enharmonic spelling to favor sharps, Finale will still spell the F# major 7th correctly. If you're in a key with no sharps, the quickest way to make sure the chord gets spelled correctly is to enter an F maj7 and then just press the + key. All the notes will get moved up a half-step. I sometimes use this method when I need double sharps (or double flats). Otherwise it's quite easy to place the cursor on the note which needs changing and either press the 9 key, or raise or lower the note using + or -. This method will only change the note under the cursor. If you need all the iterations of that particular note in a measure changed, just press alt/option first and all will be changed in one go.


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Post Edited (Vaughan) : 4/27/2016 6:07:56 PM (GMT-5)

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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 6:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan, if you are saying that whenever you enter somthing it is perfect the first time, then I need to learn composing and arranging from you!
Besides, what about sketching, and then orchestrating.
That's how I and I assume many others work.
First I sketch, or transcribe the thing I'm arranging by ear, then I orchestrate it out, so of course I need to retain many rhythms but change the pitches to suit different lines, etc. Hope that makes sense.

Anyway your description is helpful, but I'm afraid I still don't understand.
here's an example I'm doing right now -
I'm working in 'open key' because the key signature would just make it too difficult with so many non-diatonically related harmonies.

I'm trying to right an A7 chord, so I need a C# and a G in the trombones on one staff.
When I enter it in speedy with my midi keyboard, I get Db and G, I don't want that.
So then how do I go and make it C# without pressing 9 over and over and over until it cycles through every possibility until I get the one I want?
when there's more notes it gets even more confusing for me.

Can you help me understand what I'm not getting? Is there a faster way?

Thanks.


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 6:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see your - enter an Fmaj7 chord and move up a half step.
That does NOT seem logical to me, and is simply a work-around,
Furthermore, that would only work in that situation.
For the example I explained above where I want C#and G would not work for that.

When I'm pressing 9 over and over in speedy to get the C# and G that I want, I not that FIRST Finale tries to spell it as Ab and Abb - MY GOSH Who in the WORLD would want to read that and why would I EVER want that unless I went and did something more manual?
Maybe there's a feature that determines more 'common' enharmonic spellings of chords that I have turned off or something???

Thanks again!


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Post Edited (twistiejoe) : 4/27/2016 6:20:02 PM (GMT-5)

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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 6:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OKAY,
So guess what I have an update.
I have been experimenting for a while now.
Do you know what it is?
Not being zoomed in enough!
I THOUGHT I had the cursor on the right note in speedy and pressed 9, but it would cycle through all sorts of strange enharmonic spellings,
Then I zoomed RIGHT IN to do it and it works as I would epxect now!
This sux because I have a beautiful big vertical screen showing EVERYTHING but it means I have to zoom in EVERY time I want to change something enharmoncally ...
Damn.
any more advice?
I just have to zoom in all the time?
That really sux ...


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Zuill
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   Posted 4/27/2016 7:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not sure you saw what I said about the Enter key in Speedy. The note value stays the same, but the notes change to the new chord. Change a chord with Enter, right arrow, change the next chord. The only thing different from Simple is that in Simple, it automatically proceeds to the next note. But, if you don't want to leave Speedy, the Enter key repitch is the way to go. Also, it is sometimes better for some chords if your fingers get all the notes before you hit Enter. In Simple, if you miss, you have to go back. Also, in Simple, if you don't hit all the notes precisely together, the results can be awkward.

Zuill


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twistiejoe
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   Posted 4/27/2016 7:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yep I saw that thanks Zuill. Going to use that for sure! I like the simple respell too tho because I can quickly re-spell passages - FASTER than 'speedy' - but I can do that for the occasional chord and use respell for longer passages instead.


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