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Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/17/2016 8:23 PM (GMT -6)

Embarrassed to admit that I used it all the time - google can't tell me what the workaround is - anyone here have an idea?

cheers,
dave

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.4, Finale 2014.5

Jetcopy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795

Posted 8/17/2016 8:28 PM (GMT -6)

I just put tempo markings in as text expressions.

What did the tempo tool give you that was different? I never used it.

Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, El Capitan on separate drive

Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/17/2016 8:32 PM (GMT -6)

I tried putting the tempo marking in as a text expression but it only "stuck" for one measure...hmph

Tempo tool was just easy, click the metronome, click the score, set the tempo you wanted for as long as you wanted it (could control by bar numbers).

thanks for the reply!

ps - creating a new tempo expression references the old tempo tool so not everything has been cleaned out - see screenshot

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.4, Finale 2014.5

Post Edited (Dave Lang) : 8/17/2016 8:42:28 PM (GMT-5)

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Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/17/2016 8:46 PM (GMT -6)

tried the midi "tempo" tool but that only sets for one measure as well

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.4, Finale 2014.5

Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/17/2016 8:53 PM (GMT -6)

so my work around for now is to open the file in 2014.5, set the tempo, save it, then open in in Finale 25

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.4, Finale 2014.5

Post Edited (Dave Lang) : 8/17/2016 9:13:09 PM (GMT-5)

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 8/17/2016 8:54 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Dave:
I'm with Jetcopy and just used the Expression tool.
The Tempo Tool functionality is found in the MIDI Tool. (https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/FinaleMac/Content/Finale/ID_MAINTOOL_MIDI.htm)
You can also use the Tempo Tap Staff in Studio View to set tempo.
A good general overview on Tempo is here https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/FinaleMac/Content/Finale/Tempo.htm

I'd stay away from Executable shapes. Human Playback works great for accel. and rit. Make sure you do have Human Playback turned on in Playback Controls. You can also get some weird results if in "Playback/Record Options" you don't have Dynamics and Markings set to chance from measure 1.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Michael

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/17/2016 8:56 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Michael - thanks - how can I make the expression tool last more than one bar?

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.4, Finale 2014.5

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 8/18/2016 4:02 AM (GMT -6)

Dave Lang said...
I tried putting the tempo marking in as a text expression but it only "stuck" for one measure...hmph

You've probably got underlying MIDI data (or even Tempo Tool settings, which are invisible) that needs clearing.

"This is me helping."

Finale 2014.5, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.4)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/18/2016 12:06 PM (GMT -6)

ok thanks

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.6, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 8/18/2016 1:36 PM (GMT -6)

I used the MIDI Tempo tool recently. It's arcane and takes some getting used to.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 8/18/2016 3:15 PM (GMT -6)

I'm with Wiggy on the issue of expressions only happening for 1 measure. I have honestly never seen that. I'd clear all the tempo data in the file.
Edit / Clear Selected Items

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/18/2016 3:34 PM (GMT -6)

to follow up - I used the MIDI tool, selected the entire document, then applied the tempo and that seemed to work - cheers and thanks for your help everyone

ps - v25 still has at least one of the old bugs (weirdness around chord suffixes) but overall is much much faster and more stable than 2014.5 (for me anyway) - I bought the upgrade and have no regrets

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.6, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25

CubanBach
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 32

Posted 8/20/2016 11:06 PM (GMT -6)

I do not care the TEMPO TOOL is arcane, old fashioned or whatever name you would like to give it. I LIVED and LOVED TEMPO TOOL and it worked FINE for many many years. I have used FINALE since 1994 - that's 22 YEARS of paying for and learning FINALE and NOW they delete it all of a sudden?? - for apparently no reason at all - except to irk it's long-time members. I am just getting too old for this crap. Why do I have to RELEARN this software?

Finale should be about music - not software...

Sorry for the histrionics but - AT LEAST they could have mentioned something - somewhere. Wouldn't it have been nice?

grrrr...

"The man that hath no music in himself
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils."
Merchant of Venice
Wm. Shakespeare

Post Edited (CubanBach) : 8/20/2016 11:13:08 PM (GMT-5)

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 8/21/2016 1:43 AM (GMT -6)

You take the Finale 25 file, open it in 2014.5, add the tempo data, then go back to Finale 25. A workaround, but doable.

I generally use the MIDI Tool to do all my tempo changes as it is much easier than the Tempo Tool.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 8/21/2016 4:10 AM (GMT -6)

They did mention it, as well as the other changes/improvements, in the ReadMe file provided with Finale 25. Getting upset about the removal of an arcane feature in favour of better solutions is like getting upset at a car manufacturer for replacing the crank starter on the front bumper with a key-operated starter inside the car. Give those better solutions a try. As Zuill said, the MIDI Tool is much easier to use than the Tempo Tool.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Robert Patterson plugins, waiting for Tobias' and Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.11.6
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Dave Lang
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 364

Posted 8/21/2016 1:50 PM (GMT -6)

I dunno - setting the tempo on a piece of music by opening the midi tool (midi, what's that?) and making some changes (make sure you select the measures you want to affect!) vs. clicking on a "tempo" button doesn't seem like much of a step forward to me.

But I agree it's not the end of the world.

Just imagine explaining the process to someone who is new to Finale, though. They would think you've lost your mind.

MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.6, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25

Jetcopy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795

Posted 8/21/2016 1:58 PM (GMT -6)

Dave,

Can you post a file where using a text expression only works for one measure? I honestly think this is the easiest way. You're simply adding a visual text indication to anyone who looks at the music, and it plays back. What could be easier?

JT

Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, El Capitan on separate drive

KennethKen
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570

Posted 8/21/2016 2:02 PM (GMT -6)

I think the MIDI Tool is not as intuitive. Some of the menu commands work by adding MIDI data to the file and some work by editing pre-existing MIDI data but the labeling does not clearly indicate which does what. For example, if you try to Add, Scale (percentage-wise) or Percentage Alter a measure using the MIDI Tool and you haven't already entered MIDI data into the measure nothing happens and it appears like the program is not working. To the average person and "Add..." [a tempo change to my piece at the selected measure] is synonymous with "Set To..." [a certain tempo at the selected measure]. Likewise, than piece/file already has a tempo (as can be seen on the transport bar or an expression at the beginning) so a user is reasonable to think that using the MIDI Tool to Scale (percentage-wise) or Percentage Alter should change that tempo accordingly. But it doesn't...unless you've already add MIDI data to the measure in question.

Then there's the issue of multiple tempo changes that are relative to the opening tempo and later wanting to experiment with different opening tempos...especially if you have hard tempo marks also in the score. The Tempo Tool seems to be happy with Chasing the Tempo from the first measure but the MIDI Tool is not so cooperative.

Ken

Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2014, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram

http://www.AmisMusicalCircle.com

Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

Post Edited (KennethKen) : 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM (GMT-5)

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 8/21/2016 2:11 PM (GMT -6)

The MIDI Tool shows graphically what the MIDI tempo changes are. That is easy to see. In prior versions, in the Tempo Tool, you couldn't see the graphic representation. So, you still had to go to the MIDI Tool to easily see it.

The problem with text expressions is that certain HP settings manipulate them. In order to see what I mean, apply the HP plugin or HP feature and then go to the MIDI Tool and look at the graphic representation. You'll be surprised at how the MIDI tempo wanders all over the place as HP applies its voodoo.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 8/21/2016 2:31 PM (GMT -6)

CubanBach said...
Finale should be about music - not software...

What does that even mean? Finale IS software, which attempts to assist in the replication of music notation, using methods provided by the designers.

Try the Expression Tool. Add expressions that are clearly visible (but not necessary printing) in the score, so you can see what tempo assignments you have made, rather than invisible parameters in the Tempo or MIDI tools. Who knows, you may even like it.

I'm sorry to report that learning new things is a fairly fundamental and constant aspect of the human experience.

"This is me helping."

Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

KennethKen
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570

Posted 8/21/2016 2:38 PM (GMT -6)

Zuill said...
The MIDI Tool shows graphically what the MIDI tempo changes are. That is easy to see. In prior versions, in the Tempo Tool, you couldn't see the graphic representation. So, you still had to go to the MIDI Tool to easily see it.

The problem with text expressions is that certain HP settings manipulate them. In order to see what I mean, apply the HP plugin or HP feature and then go to the MIDI Tool and look at the graphic representation. You'll be surprised at how the MIDI tempo wanders all over the place as HP applies its voodoo.

Zuill

Certainly the graphic representation of MIDI is easily understood, but that's not what I was getting at. I was mainly talking about the potentially confusing labels which former Tempo Tool users will now have to deal with and the work people working with many relative tempo changes will have to do if they want to audition different starting tempi.

BTW - Which text expression are you referring to. I put in a few but my MIDI Tool window doesn't show anything.

Ken

Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2014, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram

http://www.AmisMusicalCircle.com

Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 8/21/2016 2:48 PM (GMT -6)

Dave Lang said...
(make sure you select the measures you want to affect!)

If you just want to set the tempo from some point forward, it's easier to use an expression. Use the MIDI tool if you want a ritardando or accellerando just so.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 8/21/2016 4:22 PM (GMT -6)

The MIDI Tool window doesn't show anything for Text Expressions until you hardwire the data via the built-in Apply HP feature.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Daz
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 1723

Posted 8/21/2016 4:33 PM (GMT -6)

Hi

I've never had a lot of time for manipulating the tempo with the tempo or midi tools. Not saying that it's bad/wrong or anything, just a personal thing.
I've always found it easiest to use expressions. Even fine tuning ritards or accellerandi. Using a combination to tempo marks and HP expressions seem to work, and I get to see things there on the score without having to go into the midi tool.

It's a bit messy, but it makes sense to me <grin>

Cheers...

Daz. :o)

------------------------
Finale 2006-2011, Finale 25 - Win7 64 bit

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KennethKen
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570

Posted 8/21/2016 7:03 PM (GMT -6)

Daz said...

It's a bit messy, but it makes sense to me

Yeah, that's the kind of visual mess that I try to avoid. It is very clear as to what's going on though... I don't think the removal of the Tempo Tool helps the user in any way but it does make certain situations (as I describe above) trickier and given that the graphically representation requires extra steps to show text expressions can be just as opaque.

Ken

Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2014, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram

http://www.AmisMusicalCircle.com

Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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