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Michael Mortilla
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Total Posts : 2378
 
   Posted 8/23/2016 6:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm done here. I'll still lurk with questions and comments about versions of Finale prior to F25 and help when I can, but as far as future updates to Finale, I am done.

I have paid for every update since 1996 when I started using the program and have really enjoyed using it. The results have been used at the Olympics, in multiple scores for the Chicago Symphony, Harvard Pops, The Academy of Motion Pictures, the Library of Congress, the National Archives, Turner Classic Movies, and countless other venues over the past twenty years.

When I score for real musicians, I start and end in Finale and never touch my DAW. That includes my work for film. I write the notes, start to finish and everything in between, in Finale. It is the fastest and most efficient way for me to compose to picture - or at least, it was.

The loss of the MOVIE WINDOW was the deal breaker for me. For one, it simply DOES NOT WORK. Audio from Finale is not successfully passed thru to the DAW (Digital Performer). The audio appears on the DP meters as an "instrument" and I can see the VU meter in DP responding, but no audio is present.

Even if that could be fixed, the connection between the apps is otherwise lost. Finale stops scrolling after a few minutes and that ends the usefulness of that session. Restarting Finale regains the connection but it is soon lost again.

And that's not the worst of it! Once you link via Rewire, there is no playback possible in Finale when you are actually IN Finale. As long as the DAW is running, Finale plays back NOTHING. One has to quit the DAW and Finale and then launch Finale w/o the DAW running to get anywhere in F25. As long as the DAW has an audio track with the Finale output as the source, Finale no longer will playback ANYTHING.

Then there is the logistics problem. Even if this convoluted system worked, one is still required to move between apps to accomplish a simple task - playback to picture, which all recent version of Finale did flawlessly.

One can only guess at the motivation for removing the window, but I suspect it is a cost cutting measure. Since the app was rewritten for this release, perhaps it was not cost effective to have that code be redone if MM could simply "job the video out" via Rewire. I'm only guessing, but whatever the rationale, this composer will not be updating to ANY version of Finale that retains that method. I'll just stick with F2014.5 and that's where the road ends, at least at this point. It simply makes no logical sense to have to jump between programs to run a simple quicktime movie. Add to that the dysfunction of the Rewire implementation and there is really nothing to be done until MM restores the MOVIE WINDOW.

While you're at it, you might want to also restore OCR via TIFF imports. The excuse for removing that was, quite frankly, not believable. Again, I suspect it was a matter of not wanting to have to rewrite that code in the new version. F2014.4 does the job just fine.

I will be requesting a refund for the dysfunction and crippled F25 update and cannot recommend the application to anyone seriously scoring to picture.

This is a very sad day for me.


Os X 10.11.5
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

Finale 2014.5; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

Post Edited (Michael Mortilla) : 8/25/2016 10:49:57 AM (GMT-5)

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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
Polymathist



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Total Posts : 883
 
   Posted 8/23/2016 7:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael,

Even Sibelius is in consideration of dropping their movie window. I suspect it may have more to do with available movie players to integrate than anything else.
The non support and eventual death of quicktime by Apple is the excuse Avid/Sibelius is giving.


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.2, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

Post Edited (Ralph L. Bowers Jr.) : 8/23/2016 7:36:57 PM (GMT-5)


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Michael Mortilla
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Total Posts : 2378
 
   Posted 8/23/2016 8:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Excuse. Exactly. Digital Performer dropped the Quicktime player and created a new way of playing films that didn't use QT. We lost a few options in exporting, but we did NOT loose the ability to score to picture. If that's what one does for a living and it is taken away, the software becomes useless. THAT is my bottom line.


Os X 10.11.5
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

Finale 2014.5; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

Post Edited (Michael Mortilla) : 8/23/2016 8:10:25 PM (GMT-5)

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michelp
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   Posted 8/24/2016 6:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Rewire support should have been an additional feature (useful for those who are familiar with DAWs) and the Video window should not have been taken away, because, as Michael says, many of us who prefer an 'integrated" workflow, just within Finale.


Michel
Finale 2014.5, 2014d, 2012c (main), 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, MacOsX 10.9.5, Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express, 3 monitors.

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 8/24/2016 7:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Film scoring is not something I know anything about, but I do find the current situation puzzling. As I've said elsewhere, I did ask MM in the beta-testing phase whether the switch to ReWire and the removal of the Video Window would be seen as a positive thing for those who do this kind of work, given that there had been problems with the Movie Window in earlier versions that caused quite a lot of anger.

MM regularly uses film composers in its marketing material: on the Finale FaceBook page, there is currently a link to Bill Brown's latest blog post. (No mention of Finale there, however.)

If the ReWire feature does indeed provide the function that film composers need, then MM needs to provide detailed instructions for how to use it.
usermanuals.finalemusic.com/FinaleMac/Content/Finale/ReWire.htm These would seem to be fairly basic and don't seem to address the finer points of how to use it for film scoring.

If it doesn't provide the features that film composers need, then MM needs to acknowledge that.

If the DAW doesn't have a Video Window either, then something would seem to be lost.
If Finale doesn't provide you with want you need, then walking away from the product is entirely understandable: but I hope there is something that can replace it. One would have thought that the film scoring community would be sizeable enough, or sizeably wealthy enough, for music software developers to pander to.


"This is me helping."

Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 8/24/2016 10:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's a very rare case that film composers use notation software to compose to film. Most of those articles usually end up meaning that their orchestrators or copyists finished the job in Finale.

It's more likely that notation is used for sketching and fleshing out orchestral ideas, but the actual job of dealing with picture is done in a DAW. Michael, I think you're probably a pretty rare case. Hopefully, the Rewire issues are sorted out soon enough. And the Mac speed issues. And the lack of complete 64-bit plugins. Did I mention I still use 2011 quite happily...


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.9.5

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 8/24/2016 10:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I also score to picture in my DAW when a score is not expected to go to print. I don't accept that I am a rare case. Clearly, those with college training in the last few decades are probably challenged working completely in notation. The idea of creating works "on paper" and not just playing notes into a sequencer is, in fact, a tradition going back centuries. And it's not just film & tv. There are ballet and theater scores, as well as a multitude of media, being scored "on paper" and bypassing the DAW experience.

Outsourcing picture to some "other app" is not acceptable IMO. Either Finale accommodates scoring to picture or it does not, and right now it does not.


Os X 10.11.5
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

Finale 2014.5; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

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Michael Mortilla
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Total Posts : 2378
 
   Posted 8/24/2016 11:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
UPDATE: I called Make Music this morning and requested a refund based on the fact that the movie window is gone. I received an immediate refund. As mentioned earlier, I will stay on Finale 2014.5 as it remains the best music program I know of. If and when MM revives the movie scoring feature, I'll gladly pay the update cost, even at twice the amount. I truly want to see the company thrive and the app be all it is capable of being.

I truly appreciate all the feedback, including the help from Make Music on the forum, at tech support, and over the phone with sales. It remains a high class company in my eyes and that means a lot. I'm looking forward to F26...


Os X 10.11.5
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

Finale 2014.5; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/24/2016 12:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ralph L. Bowers Jr. said...
Even Sibelius is in consideration of dropping their movie window. I suspect it may have more to do with available movie players to integrate than anything else.
The non support and eventual death of quicktime by Apple is the excuse Avid/Sibelius is giving.

I don't think Sibelius is considering dropping support of the video features. They have said that "We're working on a replacement for the functionality that QuickTime provides" and I believe that means continued integration of the video window within Sibelius.

Michael,

I understand you prefer Finale to Sibelius for various reasons. Perhaps one option would be to score in Sibelius for your movie projects and export as XML at some point to Finale when you want to fine-tune the notation elements. Even as compared to Finale with a working movie window, Sibelius has many more options for video work including support for markers ("hit points"), different frame rate options, and the ability to start a video or score playback at any time, not just the beginning of the video or score (see attached).


Finale 2011c, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Sibelius 7.5.1, 8.3
Logic Pro X
Mac Pro (Late 2013) 3.7GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5
OS X 10.11.5
32 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/


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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 8/24/2016 12:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I tried S. for over a year and don't like the app one bit, let alone 64. Lol

I'd rather just stay with F2014.5. It's working just fine. Thanks for the idea.


Os X 10.11.5
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

Finale 2014.5; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/24/2016 12:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Understood. For others who might be interested, I should add that the Sibelius features also allow you to have transport timecode that matches that of the burn on the video, which can be helpful.


Finale 2011c, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Sibelius 7.5.1, 8.3
Logic Pro X
Mac Pro (Late 2013) 3.7GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5
OS X 10.11.5
32 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/

Post Edited (Philip.) : 8/24/2016 12:26:06 PM (GMT-5)


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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 8/24/2016 12:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Philip. said...
Understood. For others who might be interested, I should add that the Sibelius features also allow you to have transport timecode that matches that of the burn on the video, which can be helpful.


You sure Dreamsworks wants you to be showing their horse's asses? blush


Os X 10.11.5
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

Finale 2014.5; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/24/2016 12:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Also to Ralph's earlier point — hopefully without opening a can of worms about the corporate practices of Avid or MakeMusic :-) — Avid has no choice, they must solve the QuickTime problem in order to support video in its other apps like Pro Tools and Media Composer, so presumably Sibelius will be able to take advantage of those efforts. MakeMusic has no comparable expertise in video development, which probably influenced their decision to stop supporting it. Just a hunch.


Finale 2011c, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Sibelius 7.5.1, 8.3
Logic Pro X
Mac Pro (Late 2013) 3.7GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5
OS X 10.11.5
32 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/24/2016 12:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael Mortilla said...
Philip. said...
Understood. For others who might be interested, I should add that the Sibelius features also allow you to have transport timecode that matches that of the burn on the video, which can be helpful.


You sure Dreamsworks wants you to be showing their horse's asses? blush

Ha ha, I think one frame is ok under "fair use." FYI this particular clip was originally used in a workshop setting. Nevertheless, out of caution I cropped the image.


Finale 2011c, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Sibelius 7.5.1, 8.3
Logic Pro X
Mac Pro (Late 2013) 3.7GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon E5
OS X 10.11.5
32 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/

Post Edited (Philip.) : 8/24/2016 12:26:27 PM (GMT-5)

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 8/24/2016 12:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Philip. said...
Michael Mortilla said...
Philip. said...
Understood. For others who might be interested, I should add that the Sibelius features also allow you to have transport timecode that matches that of the burn on the video, which can be helpful.


You sure Dreamsworks wants you to be showing their horse's asses? blush

Ha ha, I think one frame is ok under "fair use." FYI this particular clip was originally used in a workshop setting. Nevertheless, out of caution I cropped the image.


If I posted one frame of any film I'm working on, even silent PD stuff, I'd be in trouble. Their sails (and sales); their wind (and win). LOL Yet, I imagine you'd be OK and if you weren't, please give them my number... scool


Os X 10.11.5
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

Finale 2014.5; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

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Donald Sosin
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   Posted 12/20/2016 4:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I too am frustrated by the loss of the movie window in Finale 25 and when attempting to get Finale and DP 9 to work with Rewire, I cannot get DP to give me a Finale LR input no matter what I do, let alone try to go the next step to slave Finale. Anyone have this problem? Cannot create a Finale bundle. Back to 2014.5 for film work, I guess. Sooooo frustrating. I do a lot of scoring in DP and then export the MIDI files to Finale to orchestrate and copy, not being always able to afford to hire someone to do all this...

Happy Holidays to all.
D


Donald Sosin film composer among other things
oldmoviemusic.com

Finale 2014.5 Mac OS 10.11.5 Macbook Pro 15" 2015 Roland RD-700GX with SuperNatural piano sounds and SRX -09 Digital Performer 8.07

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 12/20/2016 4:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Donald, the Finale outs should appear under the INPUT column in the tracks overview window in DP. I could get that far. I'm dedicating my old 8-core to Finale and leaving it at that.


Os X 10.12.1
Mac Pro (2013) 32GB RAM;
MOTU Track 16

F'n 25; Digital Performer 9.1

MIDI Life Crisis

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