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michelp
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   Posted 10/17/2016 7:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I didn't see anybody mentioning the live presentation on Youtube and Facebook on Oct. 18.
Here is the Youtube link /www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEU8v_vV1aE


Michel
Finale 2014.5, 2012c (main), MacOsX 10.11.6, Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express, 3 monitors.

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Vaughan
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   Posted 10/17/2016 8:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank you, John, for posting the right link.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
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Vaughan
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   Posted 10/17/2016 8:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And yes, I'm curious to see the live presentation tomorrow evening.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 10/17/2016 9:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
MikeHalloran said...
As to the topic, Dorico will have to bring a lot to the table to get me as a customer.
I'll try the demo when there is one but, right now, I can't see anything that interests me.

You should look at Dorico's comprehensive list of features, many of which are either impossible in Finale or which require extensive, time-consuming workarounds. While it looks as though Dorico will be just as flexible as Finale is, its defaults have been determined by people who have an extensive knowledge of correct engraving rules. Finale's kind of tabula-rasa flexibility plus its often poor defaults results in many scores which are full of glaring notational errors and ugly engraving, both of which can make the music unnecessarily difficult and unpleasant to read. I'm having to put up with this at the moment: one of the pieces I'm studying has obviously been set in Finale and it's full of badly notated durations, collisions, bad enharmonisations, poor defaults like ledger lines which are just as thin as the staff lines and are very difficult to read, messy placement of objects, etc. Sure, it's possible to do all of this well in Finale but it takes extensive time, knowledge and dedication, most of which are frequently in short supply. Editions like this are far from the exception and, sadly, many musicians have simply become used to seeing and accepting them. I'm hoping that Dorico will start to help this situation.

Take a look at this list of Dorico's features and tell me if you really can't see anything that interests you!
www.steinberg.net/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&g=0&t=1476696447&hash=e897155c82fe19c9b450e2461441cd577509dbf9&file=fileadmin/files/PRODUCTS/Dorico/Downloads/Dorico_Feature_Overview_20161010.pdf
You make a lot of assumptions for a product that, till Wednesday, exists only in press releases. I've been burned many times over the last 31 years since I bought my first Mac.

Since, based on those same press releases, Dorico cannot yet do things I need, I can't see myself buying it at release. For what I do, it's in the Stone Age.

I will demo it when that becomes available. I demo all notation software but still haven't found anything that works as well for me as Encore and Finale. Overture and Notion come close but have note entry issues that get in my way. MuseScore is useless. I will spend money on anything that improves my productivity—it doesn't appear that Dorico will do this.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

Post Edited (MikeHalloran) : 10/17/2016 9:23:33 AM (GMT-5)

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 10/17/2016 12:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wouldn't count on switching to Dorico on day 1 for anyone that is currently using notation software professionally. It is shaping up to be a great program, but the initial release may prove underwhelming after all the buildup. There is still a lot of work to be done. I have faith it will get there, but it's going to take some time. I'll be very curious to see what sort of response it gets from the public.

If you're interested, now will be a great time to either try the demo, or jump in while the cross grade prices are affordable. But, if you're currently working on a project, I would advise against thinking you'll be able to jump right in.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
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Zoots
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   Posted 10/17/2016 2:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You are certainly correct about that, Jeremy.

I think the "not full featured" release is being offered to stir some interest and to calm those people following Spreadbury's blog who are clamoring for a release.

Offering something that is limited may cause comments about it being no good but anybody who has followed the blog will know that there is a lot of up-front effort going into Dorico to ensure it is going to get a lot of things right, including fine details.


Finale 2012c
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EscapeNote
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   Posted 10/17/2016 3:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, Zoots, would you mind posting a link to the Spreadbury blog you mentioned? I'd like to check it out. Or just point me in the right direction.


Finale 2014.d
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Knut
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   Posted 10/17/2016 3:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
EscapeNote said...
Hey, Zoots, would you mind posting a link to the Spreadbury blog you mentioned? I'd like to check it out. Or just point me in the right direction.


blog.steinberg.net


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
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Vaughan
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   Posted 10/17/2016 4:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...
You make a lot of assumptions for a product that, till Wednesday, exists only in press releases...

For the past three years I've been following the development of the program closely and have even occasionally contributed comments and criticisms to Dorico's development team. In Daniel Spreadbury's blog, he has been quite open about the ideas behind and the problems involved in creating such a complex piece of software. Naturally it's still a product in development but I'm quite confident in what has already been produced and, especially, in what is still to come. You can call those assumptions if you like, but they are based on several years of intense scrutiny.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

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Flint
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   Posted 10/17/2016 6:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??

Then I'll never try it. There's no F***ing way I am installing that monstrosity that is Windows 10.


My only complaint (other than a few Who Moved My Cheese moments) is that Windows 10 bricked my HP printer. :-p

As for D*****, it really depends on how easily you can edit things. All the blog entries I read so far seem to indicate that it's really mouse-intensive, and with no indication of note-entry methods.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
 

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Gary the T
[Funny comment here.]



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   Posted 10/17/2016 7:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Count me among those who are interested in checking it out.


Mobile: 17" MBP (2.66 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB RAM, 10.10.5), True Systems Precision 8, MH LIO-8
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 10/17/2016 10:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
MikeHalloran said...
You make a lot of assumptions for a product that, till Wednesday, exists only in press releases...

For the past three years I've been following the development of the program closely and have even occasionally contributed comments and criticisms to Dorico's development team. In Daniel Spreadbury's blog, he has been quite open about the ideas behind and the problems involved in creating such a complex piece of software. Naturally it's still a product in development but I'm quite confident in what has already been produced and, especially, in what is still to come. You can call those assumptions if you like, but they are based on several years of intense scrutiny.
but no hands on experience.

Let's save all the 'how wonderful this will be' nonsense till after it has been released and people are actually using it. Since I won't be able to knock a simple lead sheet in it, I am reserving my judgement till after they've made a few updates and I've had a chance to demo it.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 10/17/2016 11:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From what I've seen, the Spreadbury blog has focused on the fine points of music typesetting and appearance, but what will make or break the program is ease of use (including music entry--not Sibelius's strong suit) and robustness.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 10/18/2016 11:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
From what I've seen, the Spreadbury blog has focused on the fine points of music typesetting and appearance, but what will make or break the program is ease of use (including music entry--not Sibelius's strong suit) and robustness.
On that point we agree completely.

I'm not in the engraving business. My goal is to have my charts read easily by the musicians who will play them. To make that happen, I have to get the notes down and lay them out. Encore is easiest for me with Finale close behind. Encore doesn't look very good and there are many layout functions it cannot handle. That's what Finale is for.

Once Dorico can do what I need, I will check it out but, if I can't knock out my charts easily, it will be useless to me.

The latest versions of Oversure and Notion were released in the last few weeks. I've already disqualified Notion because note entry takes too many mouse clicks. I haven't looked at the latest Overture 5.1 yet but will in a few days—5.02 was not ready for prime time.

I have lost count of the number of notation programs I've owned over the years. Like everyone, I'm looking for the app that gets it looking the way I want as easily as possible. Easy is my preference.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 10/18/2016 1:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dorico release event streaming live NOW

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_hOJ7KSx_k

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

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Shnootre
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   Posted 10/18/2016 4:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, when it comes to layout and elegance of design, color me VERY impressed. I can't even imagine not spending hours and hours on fixing Finale formatting? What would I even do with that time? (probably think of something).

Seems like Playback will be quite limited in the early going, which surprising considering it's Steinberg. But also seems like they are set on doing it right, and I really like the vision for the whole thing. Now I'm curious about what the reality will be like.

Hopefully the "real" price they announce tomorrow will be lower than the originally announced price. Their crossgrade price - especially with zero track record - should be in line with Finale and Sibelius at the very most.


Daniel Sonenberg
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Motet
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   Posted 10/18/2016 4:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I hope the sound syncs better with Dorico playback than that Youtube video--unwatchable!


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/18/2016 5:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe a very minor details, but I hated the endpoints on those slurs.

Sadly, when he started talking about playback, it suddenly became "blah blah blah"... I had no idea what he was saying.
I've never used a sequencer before, and when he opened that playback window with filters and EQ and GLSKJECNUIDCOIJDS and all sorts of other things that may as well be Klingon to me, he just lost me.
Hopefully, one day the program will work without you having to resort to that anti-musical interface.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 10/18/2016 5:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel,

Therein lies the problem with music notation and music technology. I talked to Daniel about this in detail last year. Their goal is to try to hit a happy middle point between Sibelius' handling of soundsets (that work out of the box, but are VERY hard to edit and customize) and a full DAW (full customizability, but complex). They've made it so that you can avoid using that stuff and just write music, but if you want to use complex sample libraries, you'll eventually be able to fully use them.

FYI, when you load up a new template or create new instruments, it automatically loads up all the required sounds from it's orchestra library. So, you really don't have to worry about it unless you want to change something.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.11.6

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EscapeNote
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   Posted 10/18/2016 5:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Different strokes for different folks! Playback is VERY important to me. I spend half my time in Finale and the other half in Pro Tools. In my experience - in the circles I work in - it's expected that I be able to give clients a reasonably decent sounding mockup of an arrangement. I find that this can often lead to better end results and better compensation for my hard work. It is very tedious having to swap the same music back and forth between DAW and Finale - doing one for quality of playback, the other for quality of notation.

But that's just me. IMHO, one of the great things about music is that there are so many ways to go about it. Many of us have different systems for being productive and creative. For some, Finale gets it done just right.

I wish I could have watched the entire stream today, but had to get back to working in Finale and finish charting on a deadline! But what I saw impressed me mightily - I'll be purchasing Dorico tomorrow, no doubt.


Finale 2014.d
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SF
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   Posted 10/18/2016 9:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel said...
Maybe a very minor details, but I hated the endpoints on those slurs.
The endpoints are easily changeable.

SF


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Shnootre
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   Posted 10/19/2016 8:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Crossgrade price out today - it's $279. Too rich for me to be a beta tester of the 1.0 version, but I'll await the free trial (available next month, supposedly), and initial reports.


Daniel Sonenberg
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Shnootre
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   Posted 10/19/2016 8:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Um, as I was saying: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/dorico-is-this-a-joke.56651/


Daniel Sonenberg
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OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
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Finale 25
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EscapeNote
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   Posted 10/19/2016 1:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For all the work that it takes to develop a product like this, bring it to market, make good on the promises (the critical features yet to be added) and support it in the future, 280 bucks strikes me as a very fair price. Notation software is a tool I use to make my living. I would rather pay a little more for quality tools than get strung along by bargain prices and the hassle of dealing with tools that constantly need repairing and require workarounds to get the jobs done.

Of course this is me talking without yet having worked with Dorico. I hope I'll still be singing the same tune after I've worked with the program for awhile :)

Bottom line: if it measures up to the promises, then I'm definitely OK with buying in at 280 bucks!


Finale 2014.d
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/19/2016 2:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
$280... plus VAT... which makes it closer to $350


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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