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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/21/2016 11:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am totally with you, Fred G. Unn. Well said all above.


NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 10/22/2016 1:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Music notation is very difficult. Orders of magnitude more so than standard Text and graphics DTP. For every feature that "helps" by positioning elements in a certain way, there's a piece of music where it needs to be different. Many of the rules are entirely arbitrary, and for every rule there is an exception.
The same app must cope with music from Palestrina to Ferneyhough; jazz and Broadwsy shows; Wagner operas to hymn sheets.

We now have three commercial professional packages, with open source community projects like Musegraph coming up from behind. ALL of them have limitations, problems, known "issues" and idiosyncrasies. Dorito might fix many of the obstacles that Finale throws up, but I would be very surprised if it won't introduce its own.

If you want total flexibility, you might be better off emulating old-school engravers on a blank document in Illustrator or Affinity Design!

Say what you like about Finale, but if it won't do what you want automatically, you can at least do it manually. (Cue reply citing example where that's not the case :p )


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 10/22/2016 1:16:26 AM (GMT-5)

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 10/22/2016 4:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Were any members of this forum beta testers for Dorico? I know there are possibly limitations on what can be discussed, but it would be nice to hear whatever opinions you can divulge.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
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nordensten
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   Posted 10/22/2016 6:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
With over 200 beta testers, I would guess most of them were fanboys. Any team developing notation software in the 21st century should be forced to sit in with a professional engraver for 2 months, a professional and prolific composer using either Finale or Sibelius for just as long, and a film/media composer using Cubase or Pro Tools for as long as necessary. Surely Steinberg cannot survive solely on a user base dedicated to producing new editions of Beethoven...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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Knut
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   Posted 10/22/2016 8:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
N. Grossingink said...
Were any members of this forum beta testers for Dorico? I know there are possibly limitations on what can be discussed, but it would be nice to hear whatever opinions you can divulge.

N.


I didn't make the cut as a beta tester, unfortunately, but I've shared some first impressions here:
notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210#p3459

Alexander Plötz's review on the Sibelius blog is also worth reading:
www.sibeliusblog.com/news/dorico-is-here-a-review/


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

Post Edited (Knut) : 10/22/2016 8:43:14 AM (GMT-5)

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 10/22/2016 8:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...

I didn't make the cut as a beta tester, unfortunately, but I've shared some first impressions here:
notat.io/posting.php?mode=quote&f=7&p=3459

Correct: notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210#p3459


NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.

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Knut
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   Posted 10/22/2016 8:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nordensten said...
Any team developing notation software in the 21st century should be forced to sit in with a professional engraver for 2 months, a professional and prolific composer using either Finale or Sibelius for just as long, and a film/media composer using Cubase or Pro Tools for as long as necessary.


From what I've read, Daniel and the team have had a lot of interaction with professionals of all the stripes you mention, in addition to consulting an extensive body of literature on music engraving along the way. I think it's safe to say that a majority of the music engraving community has felt their presence online for a long time, and have been able to chime in on various topics if they wanted to.

What the developers choose to do with all this information is still up for debate, but you can't say they aren't well informed.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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Knut
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   Posted 10/22/2016 8:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OCTO. said...
Knut said...

I didn't make the cut as a beta tester, unfortunately, but I've shared some first impressions here:
notat.io/posting.php?mode=quote&f=7&p=3459

Correct: notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210#p3459


Thanks for spotting this, OCTO.
I've updated my post as well.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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Wess
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   Posted 10/22/2016 9:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...
Wess said...
Hi there,

can one help posting a link to Dorico PDF DEMO-samples?
I searched Google and could not find anything.

Thank you


I've made one here: notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210&start=10#p3472


Thank you.


Finale 2014 and earlier...
________________________________________
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Macbook pro 17" (2009) 2.80 GHz, RAM 8 GB, 500GB SSD Samsung EVO 840

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 10/22/2016 10:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Knut!

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

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nordensten
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   Posted 10/22/2016 12:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...
nordensten said...
Any team developing notation software in the 21st century should be forced to sit in with a professional engraver for 2 months, a professional and prolific composer using either Finale or Sibelius for just as long, and a film/media composer using Cubase or Pro Tools for as long as necessary.


From what I've read, Daniel and the team have had a lot of interaction with professionals of all the stripes you mention, in addition to consulting an extensive body of literature on music engraving along the way. I think it's safe to say that a majority of the music engraving community has felt their presence online for a long time, and have been able to chime in on various topics if they wanted to.

What the developers choose to do with all this information is still up for debate, but you can't say they aren't well informed.


Let me first say that, bearing all your excellent postings on the [pre-release] Dorico forum in mind, I am very surprised to learn here that you were not selected as a beta tester for Dorico. That fact may confirm my suspicion...

My point was that interaction with professionals is not enough. You actually have to sit down and watch professionals at work over time in order to collect sufficient knowledge of working habits, preferences and workflows. I have the greatest respect for Daniel Spreadbury, and the research and work he has now brought into Dorico in terms of engraving quality is outstanding. He may be a great musician too, but he's not a composer. I wish he was...

The fact that we just got Finale 25.1 is encouraging. I think it will also inspire the Dorico team to work even harder. Dorico has great potential and we shall all pray that Steinberg/Yamaha has the patience and resources to keep the team going. But software is not only about getting more beautiful output, it is also about getting the work done faster and more efficiently...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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Gary the T
[Funny comment here.]



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   Posted 10/22/2016 12:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not having the time to scour through other forums, I'm curious about one thing in particular:

How do you enter notes in Dorico? Does it accept MIDI input like Finale, or is is strictly mouse and/or computer keyboard entry? Details would be cool.


Mobile: 17" MBP (2.66 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB RAM, 10.10.5), True Systems Precision 8, MH LIO-8
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nordensten
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   Posted 10/22/2016 12:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's laptop oriented, you can enter everything using the qwerty, no keypad needed. You can also use the mouse/keypad, and you can use step time input from a Midi Keyboard. No realtime yet. System requirements are W10 or recent MacOSes, but I've used it now for 4 days on Windows 7, apparently with less problems than the W10 and Mac communities (if the Dorico forum is anything to go by...)


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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Fred G. Unn
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   Posted 10/22/2016 2:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut, care to comment on any speed issues? I noticed a few people on the Dorico forum complaining about lags in processing. I figured with a brand new architecture Dorico would certainly be able to at least beat Finale in the speed department, but their complaints may be due to their own system. I was just wondering if you had experienced any significant slow downs or if it's fairly quick with large computations.
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Knut
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   Posted 10/22/2016 3:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nordensten said...

Let me first say that, bearing all your excellent postings on the [pre-release] Dorico forum in mind, I am very surprised to learn here that you were not selected as a beta tester for Dorico. That fact may confirm my suspicion...


Thank you for the encouragement, but they received an enormous amount of applications, so I guess there was no shortage of qualified beta testers.

nordensten said...
My point was that interaction with professionals is not enough. You actually have to sit down and watch professionals at work over time in order to collect sufficient knowledge of working habits, preferences and workflows. I have the greatest respect for Daniel Spreadbury, and the research and work he has now brought into Dorico in terms of engraving quality is outstanding. He may be a great musician too, but he's not a composer. I wish he was...


While I certainly agree that long term observation would be preferable, I don't think that is a luxury many developers can afford. Instead they must rely on inquiry and feedback, as well as their own experience.

That said, I have no idea what methods the team used when researching workflows and features. From what I've read, it just seems more extensive than one might expect.

nordensten said...
The fact that we just got Finale 25.1 is encouraging. I think it will also inspire the Dorico team to work even harder. Dorico has great potential and we shall all pray that Steinberg/Yamaha has the patience and resources to keep the team going. But software is not only about getting more beautiful output, it is also about getting the work done faster and more efficiently...


Certainly! As I've said, I don't mind not being able to do things manually, as long as the program delivers what I need automatically. What it comes down to for me is the sum total of quality vs. the time spent to achieve it.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/22/2016 3:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gary the T said...
Not having the time to scour through other forums, I'm curious about one thing in particular:

How do you enter notes in Dorico? Does it accept MIDI input like Finale, or is is strictly mouse and/or computer keyboard entry? Details would be cool.


Apparently you can enter notes from a MIDI keyboard.
However, after watching a presentation on Dorico, they seem to have a strange idea of what is "good" and what is not about how to enter notes from MIDI.
They subtly knocked Finale for Speedy entry's note entry method, which is strange to me, since Speedy is a very efficient means of entering notes from a MIDI keyboard. It's one of the reasons I was incapable of switching to Sibelius (it later added a Speedy-like note entry method).


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Knut
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   Posted 10/22/2016 3:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Fred G. Unn said...
Knut, care to comment on any speed issues? I noticed a few people on the Dorico forum complaining about lags in processing. I figured with a brand new architecture Dorico would certainly be able to at least beat Finale in the speed department, but their complaints may be due to their own system. I was just wondering if you had experienced any significant slow downs or if it's fairly quick with large computations.


It's definitely a lot more responsive than Finale 2014 and 14.5, as well as compared to my past experiences with Sibelius (v. 6).

I haven't tested Dorico with any large scores yet, but it generally feels very responsive. There is a small lag when opening and switching switching between dialogue windows and projects that I would definitely like to see improve, even though I wouldn't usually need to do this much in my regular workflow.

The only major speed issue I've encountered, and this one is pretty huge, is that when selecting an entire passage of music and transposing it diatonically (moving the notes up or down the staff), the program precedes to move each note in turn, instead of all at once. This means that transposing even just a couple of pages takes more than a minutes time!

This last one, which is not a bug but an imperfect implementation, will probably be fixed pretty quickly, and I know that the team is working hard to address all speed issues that have been reported. For the time being, I'm pretty happy with the speed, though, but there undoubtedly is some work still to be done in this regard as well.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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Fred G. Unn
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   Posted 10/22/2016 4:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...

It's definitely a lot more responsive than Finale 2014 and 14.5, as well as compared to my past experiences with Sibelius (v. 6).
...
The only major speed issue I've encountered, and this one is pretty huge, is that when selecting an entire passage of music and transposing it diatonically (moving the notes up or down the staff), the program precedes to move each note in turn, instead of all at once. This means that transposing even just a couple of pages takes more than a minutes time!


Good to hear, thanks! I assume they will figure a way to address that last issue soon.
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Mike Halloran
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   Posted 10/22/2016 5:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...
Fred G. Unn said...

Finale (and Encore, the old Acorn version of Sibelius, etc) basically were inventing the field of WYSIWYG music notation software. I've been a user since Fin2.3 and can remember looking up the clef codes in a huge printed manual, so I have no illusions about early versions of Finale, but the music notation software market is now fairly mature. Finale and Sibelius certainly aren't perfect, but they are both excellent and usable options to publish music. Anyone trying to crack into this relatively small market must give users a reason to spend their money. All of the things mentioned that are missing from Dorico 1.0 are things any reasonable person would expect a new music notation program to be able to do.


There's a strong case to be made that Dorico is aiming to redefine the field of computer based music notation, so I actually think it's entirely appropriate to show them similar leniency. This is certainly the reason why many of the features you're asking for wasn't in the initial release. For example, in the case of chord symbols, the Dorico developers clearly aren't content with simply copying the functionality of Finale or Sibelius. They want to take an entirely different (and hopefully much better) approach. If this is the road taken for every single feature in Dorico (and the first release certainly feels like it), building a scoring application becomes a monumental task pretty fast.

Are you really suggesting that we give them our money when it can't do the things we need?

I'll pass, thanks. Dorico isn't even close to being ready for a general release, IMO. Yamaha can afford to keep the research flowing at Steinberg if they are serious about this product—I have other things to worry about.

I spent way too much money on vaporware and promises over the last 31 years. Heck, I am not overjoyed about Finale 25.1 but, between it and 2014.5, I can do what I need.

I did plunk down for the Overture 5.1.1 crossgrade as it has a couple of note entry features that make my life easier and supports MusicXML 3 in case I want to export to Finale (which I will do for many projects). The money isn't the issue for me—having software that works is.


Mike Halloran

Finale 25.1 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
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Post Edited (Mike Halloran) : 10/22/2016 5:22:55 PM (GMT-5)

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ttw
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   Posted 10/22/2016 5:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Too often programs are written to meet deadlines, not specifications.


Finale 2014.5, 25
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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 10/22/2016 6:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll chime in as a beta tester for Dorico. First of all, the list contained a lot of professionals in the field. You shouldn't assume that it was all fanboys, whatever that means.

2nd, understand that the job of beta testers is not to create the program's architecture and features. Our job was to use the program and tell them when things crashed or otherwise didn't work. They were very responsive to all the beta comments. However, again understand that they had already created the foundation and features of the program over the past few years. They know what they're doing and will add features in as quick as they can. Seeing the progress from a couple of months ago, we should all expect rapid changes and improvements.

I agree that it's not quite ready for professional use yet, but it had to be released at some point. Now that it's out, just sit back and watch as it rapidly improves.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.11.6

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Motet
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   Posted 10/22/2016 6:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, note input looks like Sibelius. If they knock Speedy entry in their materials that betrays a foolish stubbornness and ignorance, I think.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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nordensten
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   Posted 10/23/2016 2:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Knut said...


It's definitely a lot more responsive than Finale 2014 and 14.5, as well as compared to my past experiences with Sibelius (v. 6).


This is definitely not the case on the Windows platform!!


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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nordensten
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Date Joined Jul 2000
Total Posts : 419
 
   Posted 10/23/2016 2:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeremy Levy said...
I'll chime in as a beta tester for Dorico. First of all, the list contained a lot of professionals in the field. You shouldn't assume that it was all fanboys, whatever that means.

2nd, understand that the job of beta testers is not to create the program's architecture and features. Our job was to use the program and tell them when things crashed or otherwise didn't work. They were very responsive to all the beta comments. However, again understand that they had already created the foundation and features of the program over the past few years. They know what they're doing and will add features in as quick as they can. Seeing the progress from a couple of months ago, we should all expect rapid changes and improvements.

I agree that it's not quite ready for professional use yet, but it had to be released at some point. Now that it's out, just sit back and watch as it rapidly improves.


I do have faith in this team, so I'm not worried about my small investment not paying off. Still, I strongly feel that the release was rushed.

Regarding beta testers, I think perhaps it was too many, too late? I've now spent a mere 12 hours with the program and already found many bugs and inconsistent behavior in all areas of the program. Hopefully the beta team found those too, but there was not enough time to rectify them before release.
Although many features were clearly announced as not included in version 1, there are also a lot of features left incomplete... I smell that the program has already developed a lot beyond the released version, so I'm basically very optimistic. I'm now also more optimistic regarding Finale's developement!


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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nordensten
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to nordenstenAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2000
Total Posts : 419
 
   Posted 10/23/2016 2:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Yes, note input looks like Sibelius. If they knock Speedy entry in their materials that betrays a foolish stubbornness and ignorance, I think.


It's certainly an air of "sibeliusness" about it, yes. That would also be true if they are decimating Speedy entry...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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