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Bill Spencer
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   Posted 11/3/2016 7:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I hope it's OK to ask this here, but have any of you tried out the new competition from Steinberg?


Thanks (ducking)


MacBook Core 2 Duo 2.9 GHz 16GB Ram OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5
MOTU DP 9
Kurzweil PC3K
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/3/2016 7:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
let's just say that it isn't anywhere near being ready for prime time.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Fred G. Unn
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   Posted 11/3/2016 7:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From their own site:

"Dorico has many unique and innovative features not found in any other software, and presents a whole new way of working with music notation, but because it is brand new, it does not yet have every feature necessary for every kind of score. Dorico will receive a number of updates in the coming months that will be free to existing users, adding new functionality. Some of the functionality that is planned to be added in these updates includes*:

Chord symbols
Repeat ending (1st, 2nd time or volta) lines
Fingerings
Jazz articulations
Rhythm slashes
More flexible unpitched percussion notation
Improvements to playback and support for third-party virtual instruments"

Additionally, it can't do piano pedaling, staves are not independently adjustable other than the program's own collision avoidance feature, the documentation is minimal, and there's no demo. So ... if you don't need any of those things, go ahead and buy it!
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Bill Spencer
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   Posted 11/3/2016 7:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm are of the incomplete feature set. Have any of you seen/tried it?


MacBook Core 2 Duo 2.9 GHz 16GB Ram OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5
MOTU DP 9
Kurzweil PC3K
Minimoog

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/3/2016 8:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
it also can't do cues in an orchestral part yet.

I haven't bothered trying since it's simply lacking so many features that are basic it would feel like completely wasted time.
besides, no demo. they're not getting a penny from me until I know the program can actually fulfil its "gold standard in engraving".


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 11/4/2016 4:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
... in other words, check Dorico in a couple of years.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 11/4/2016 5:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And it remains to be seen whether Dorico will ever have the flexibility that would attract Finale users or just turn out to be Sibelius on steroids.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 11/4/2016 5:56:25 AM (GMT-5)

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stringtapper
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   Posted 11/4/2016 8:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I purchased the educational crossgrade so I could see what the buzz was about.

It's definitely not finished. Lots of very routine things it can't do at all yet, like manually change the spacing of staves.

The foundation is promising though. I personally like the user interface and the paradigm shift in its underlying concept of players, flows, and layers is an interesting design choice that makes setting up a document very flexible.

The Engrave Mode and the ability to have frames of musical content placed however you want are the features that interest me most.

So yeah, it is kind of a "wait a year or so" situation to see where they go with it.


2.9 GHz i5 27" iMac 8GB 10.10.1 / 2.5 GHz i7 17" MacBook Pro 16GB 10.10.1 / Finale 2014d / GPO4 / Kontakt 5 / Logic Pro 10.0.7

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Motet
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   Posted 11/4/2016 11:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, they've been at it about 4 years. As a very rough guess, let's say it's costing Steinberg $1M/year (more?). If they make $400 per copy sold, at this point they have to sell 10,000 copies to break even. ($400 may be high, since there would be a lot of cross-graders.) Each development year requires another 2,500 copies be sold until at some point paid upgrades kick in. Is the market big enough? I could be way off in my estimate of costs, of course.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 11/4/2016 11:14:59 AM (GMT-5)

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Motet
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   Posted 11/4/2016 12:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Dorico Wikipedia page lists seven developers, not including Spreadbury, so $1M/year is probably low.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 11/4/2016 3:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
So, they've been at it about 4 years. As a very rough guess, let's say it's costing Steinberg $1M/year (more?). If they make $400 per copy sold, at this point they have to sell 10,000 copies to break even. ($400 may be high, since there would be a lot of cross-graders.) Each development year requires another 2,500 copies be sold until at some point paid upgrades kick in. Is the market big enough? I could be way off in my estimate of costs, of course.


Steinberg is a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha. I'm pretty sure that they can afford the tab—as long as they see a future payoff.

I can understand the release before it's ready—try t generate enthusiasm, generate some positive cash flow and expand the Beta base.

Not with my money, of course. No...


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 11/5/2016 4:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can anyone tell me whether it requires a hardware dongle on a Mac? That's a big turn-off right there.


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 11/5/2016 9:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
Can anyone tell me whether it requires a hardware dongle on a Mac? That's a big turn-off right there.

My understanding is that it uses the Steinberg eLicenser, a convoluted pain, IMO.

www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/how-do-i-activate-dorico-by-steinberg/


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

Post Edited (MikeHalloran) : 11/5/2016 2:47:17 PM (GMT-5)

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 11/5/2016 9:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...
My understanding is that it uses the Steinberg eLicenser, a convoluted pain, IMO.

Yes. Any third-party software that sinks its teeth into the OS in the name of DRM is likely to cause problems, IME.

Daniel says the dongle is an "option" here:
/www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=99045&sid=ac1363171368b2fdc8ee956b7c07d8ae

I can't see how many installations you are allowed for the price. Is it .... one?


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 11/5/2016 10:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
MikeHalloran said...
My understanding is that it uses the Steinberg eLicenser, a convoluted pain, IMO.

Yes. Any third-party software that sinks its teeth into the OS in the name of DRM is likely to cause problems, IME.

Daniel says the dongle is an "option" here:
/www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=99045&sid=ac1363171368b2fdc8ee956b7c07d8ae

I can't see how many installations you are allowed for the price. Is it .... one?

Apparently so unless you use their dongle.
/japan.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=97395&start=100

I'm ok with iLok but multiple dongles? No thanks.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/5/2016 10:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You have a choice of the eLicenser on one machine or plugging in a hardware dongle to any machine where you have the software installed.
I find the new program very promising and it's already able to do a lot of things Finale has never been able to do without extensive workarounds or 'cheating'. I agree with stringtapper's assessment (BTW, the update coming out this month will have the ability to space staves manually, plus a number of other features and fixes), especially about setting up documents. Dorico's output is also very good, with good spacing, proper kerning of accidentals, good placement of dynamics and hairpins, etc. Many things are a lot easier than in other scoring programs, like entering a series of dotted quarters in 4/4 and not having to change note values to compensate for barlines. And it's sometimes handy to able to enter notes on the fly without time signatures and to apply these afterwards. And imagine being able to select two non-contiguous notes and type in p<f>p and not only have the dynamics and hairpins placed perfectly, but watch them adjust intelligently when time signatures, spacing, or anything else changes. about flexibility: there are already options for practically every contingency and the team is taking responses from users very seriously. Pretty amazing for version 1.0 and sure, it obviously still needs development, but it already surpasses the existing programs in a number of ways and I would think more in terms of months than in years before it surpasses them completely.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 11/5/2016 11:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
Many things are a lot easier than in other scoring programs, like entering a series of dotted quarters in 4/4 and not having to change note values to compensate for barlines.

SimpleEntry will do this, FWIW.


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 11/5/2016 11:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not sure what that means--it automatically ties over the barline? Speedy entry will also do that, albeit rather clumsily.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 11/5/2016 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan, I've noticed your posts on the Dorico forum. It's obvious that you are really tearing into the program and will become a very competent early adopter. You deserve a lot of credit.

I continue to have mixed feelings about Dorico. I am dependent on a few features unique to Finale to produce work to my client's satisfaction. If Dorico will not adopt some of these features, I probably won't be interested at all.

As an example, Finale has a Measure Tool option called "Extra Space at Beginning/End of Measure". I use this feature extensively for a number of scenarios. Plus the ease with which articulations and expressions can be created, added and manipulated within a Finale file.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

Post Edited (N. Grossingink) : 11/5/2016 1:03:17 PM (GMT-5)

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 11/5/2016 2:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What it can do now isn't the issue. How nice it looks isn't important if it can't do the bread and butter stuff.

It does not have the functionality I need to knock out simple lead sheets for students or a praise band chart.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 11/5/2016 5:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
The Dorico Wikipedia page lists seven developers, not including Spreadbury, so $1M/year is probably low.


Really? You think each developer gets over $100k per year salary? Where do I sign up?


Christopher Smith

Mac Mini (Late 2014) 2.8 Ghz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM
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Finale 2014.5 and V. 25
or
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Motet
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   Posted 11/5/2016 5:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A master developer in the U.S. makes over $100K, but I was figuring on benefits and other overhead, which add 50-100% to what the person is paid.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
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ttw
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   Posted 11/5/2016 6:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have seen an estimate that it costs about 2.5 times one's salary for a company to hire a worker. This includes the costs of medical insurance, worker's comp, Social Security, office help, office space, utilities, computers, parking space, etc. Some of these are not obvious; it costs to heat and cool and put furniture in, and office; this is part of doing business. Everyone uses office help, even if it's only getting one's checks delivered. Of course my estimates are based on 15 years ago when mandated spending on employees was lower. An employer can cut back on this overhead, but it might become harder to find employees.


Finale 2014.5, 25
GWI, GPO4, GPO5, JABB 3, Steinway Basic, COMB2

Windows 10 Pro HP Envy Desktop
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Motet
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   Posted 11/5/2016 7:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes. I think $1M/year spent on Dorico is probably low. Now that the marketing phase has begun, they're spending money on that, too. I am pulling for them, but I wonder how big the market is.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/6/2016 7:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
Vaughan said...
Many things are a lot easier than in other scoring programs, like entering a series of dotted quarters in 4/4 and not having to change note values to compensate for barlines.

SimpleEntry will do this, FWIW.

True, but one nice thing about Dorico is that, depending on how you set your notation options, it will also break the note values intelligently at the half-bar, etc.

I spend an inordinate amount of time tweaking things in Finale that the program should do itself without workarounds or resorting to third party plugins. The makers of Dorico are trying to create a program that understands what you're trying to do while giving you the flexibility to alter everything to specific needs or tastes. On the one hand, the excellent defaults of such a program will cater to users who have neither the desire nor the knowledge to concern themselves with the nitty-gritty of correct musical notation, and it will thereby not add to the numerous examples of really abominable engraving which abound nowadays. It will also, however, be flexible enough to cater to users for whom the look of the engraving is important and who need everything to be fully editable.

The fact that a basic function like chords is not yet available attests to the programmers' desire to do it as well as possible from the outset, which is no simple task. Sure, Finale has a chord function, but try using the chord suffix editor or changing the suffix font. This forum is full of complaints about the user-unfriendliness and antiquated UI of the chord tool.

I just set a piece using multiple time signatures and it was a breeze: no workarounds, no hiding barlines, no graphic elements, no independent time signatures with the resulting problems with smart shapes, perfect spacing automatically, etc. Pretty good for a fledgeling program. Just one example.

As I said, it's not ready for a lot of users, including myself, but I believe in the concept and the willingness of the programming team to take all suggestions and complaints seriously.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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