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Jetcopy
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   Posted 11/7/2016 10:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
So, to sum up: Finale doesn't do enough automatically and lets you do it manually, and Dorico does too much automatically and doesn't let you do it manually. :p

The automation is what I have always disliked about Sibelius. When using Sibelius, I felt as if the programmers thought the program was "smarter" than the user and the program knew what was best.

I'm hopeful that they can find a happy medium with Dorico.


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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 11/7/2016 4:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, to sum up: Finale doesn't do enough automatically and lets you do it manually, and Dorico does too much automatically and doesn't let you do it manually. :p


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
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John Ruggero
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   Posted 11/6/2016 9:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan, I (and probably every user) agree completely with you that Finale is grossly inadequate in doing all kinds of nuts and bolts things that a machine can do far more efficiently than a human being. It was for that reason that I eagerly awaited Dorico. But I was astonished to learn that the Dorico designers had made cumbersome and even impossible some of the fine manual adjustments that depend more on the taste of the engraver than someone's rule book.

Dorico already has its own very basic spacing and positioning issues, and there are a no workarounds for them because the program does not allow the user to override the program. For example, apparently even cumbersome number input doesn't solve an issue with the spacing of seconds between two voices because the 0 starting point positions the notes too far apart for the slim Bravura note-heads and the designers ruled out the input of negative numbers to allow one push them closer together.

http://notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=213
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=104381&p=573809#p573809

And even if this were fixed, I would never use a program that uses number input for tasks that are better suited to a mouse. It is too unpleasant and inefficient.

Knut, thank you for quoting me and the compliment!


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
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The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 11/6/2016 8:35:45 PM (GMT-6)

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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/6/2016 7:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree wholeheartedly and I'd actually written (but erased) something to the effect that a lot of ills could be avoided if Finale had better defaults, but it's also a matter of a lack of functionality requiring extensive tweaking in many areas. Trouble is, we're so used to the drudgery that we don't always realise that things could be different.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
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Knut
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   Posted 11/6/2016 7:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...
I've seen people complain about Finale's steep learning curve, but it would seem that Dorito is worse in that respect.


I strongly suspect this is true only for those with intimate familiarity with another scoring application.

On a more general note: My early frustrations with Finale (particularly the infamously buggy Finale 2004) lead me to switch to Sibelius, only to discover, as my engraving knowledge and skills developed, what made Finale the superior option.

John Ruggero put it beautifully in a recent post on the notatio forum:

John Ruggero said...
For me, the best computer tool for engraving will do the things that a computer does best supremely well, but also honor and facilitate the things that a human does best.


This is what it's all about for me as well, and I won't ever choose Dorico over Finale unless it can provide me with the same quality of output, even if it's somewhat faster and easier to use. That being said, some of Dorico's current engraving and layout features would save me huge amounts of time in tedious manual work, so I am very hopeful that Dorico will become exactly what I'm looking for in a scoring app: the best of both worlds, so to speak. Finale, on the other hand, has seemed much less concerned with improving it's abilities as an engraving tool, which leads me to a final point:

Dorico's focus on automation may indeed prove to be a bad thing for those of us willing to spend days tweaking a score to perfection or discussing engraving minutiae on online forums into the wee hours of the morning. For the vast majority of users, however, not to mention for those poor players who have to deal with badly notated and engraved music on a daily basis, I think an application that will automate very sophisticated tasks to produce correctly notated, well-engraved music with minimal effort for the vast majority of situations will be most welcome. After all, users dabbling in the finer points are likely to be in a very small minority, regardless of the ability of the software they use.

Edit: Vaughan, I took some time writing my post, so forgive me for parroting some of your points above.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

Post Edited (Knut) : 11/6/2016 6:28:40 PM (GMT-6)

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Motet
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   Posted 11/6/2016 6:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm all for good defaults, as long as they're not mandatory. Finale's defaults could certainly be better.


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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/6/2016 6:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
I also sense basic mistrust of the user by the designers of the program. That bothers me deeply.

We've all seen (including in published editions) and some of us have even had to clean up the unacceptably shoddy work of users who lack the knowledge and/or interest to produce good engraving when using a program like Finale which gives you the freedom to do pretty much whatever you want but also the ability to screw things up royally. That bothers me deeply.
Dorico seems to be trying to be the best of both worlds.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/6/2016 5:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've seen people complain about Finale's steep learning curve, but it would seem that Dorito is worse in that respect.


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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/6/2016 5:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Even in version 1.0, Dorico vertically aligns grace notes correctly, and it also spaces them correctly, something Finale is still unable to do. The examples of needing to add space at the beginning of the bar to make room for rehearsal numbers or at the end to keep from crowding a final stem, or to move notes manually to make space for or to align chord symbols properly are all examples of inadequacies in Finale's abilities. As an example: rehearsal numbers are shifted to make room for top staff elements which would otherwise collide with it, and this is taken care of intelligently and automatically for score and parts separately. Also, I haven't yet seen a crowded final stem in a bar. For the longtime users among us it's hard to escape a distrust of automation or the perceived need for ubiquitous manual tweaking but this attitude is based on our experience with a program which needs manual adjustment at many turns.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 11/6/2016 4:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ah. Good one. Thanks.


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Jetcopy
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   Posted 11/6/2016 4:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...

I've just tried this in Finale, and it looks OK to me. Possibly the teensiest bit off. However, accidentals on one of the grace notes will cause a mis-alignment.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Here's the scenario I'm referring to.


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Dave Lang
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   Posted 11/6/2016 3:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
I also sense basic mistrust of the user by the designers of the program. That bothers me deeply.


I've felt the same since I watched this "soundnotion" youtube video with Daniel Spreadbury.

For example check the discussion between 25 mins and 35 mins if you like and don't want to watch the whole thing.

(careful, the video starts with loud music)

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBhPyTNkXKI

There seems to me to be a strong emphasis on forcing users of the product to notate "the right way" vs. letting them notate how they want.

re: moving notes - I do it all the time to make space for / properly align chord symbols in Finale


MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.6, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25

Post Edited (Dave Lang) : 11/6/2016 2:06:03 PM (GMT-6)

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 11/6/2016 2:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
I've just tried this in Finale, and it looks OK to me. Possibly the teensiest bit off. However, accidentals on one of the grace notes will cause a mis-alignment.


Try it with 3 or 4 grace notes. It will be a lot less teensier.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 11/6/2016 2:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...
Unrelated to this scenario. In Finale, grace notes in a score do not line up vertically if some grace notes contain ledger lines and other grace notes don't. What's Dorico's handling of this?

I've just tried this in Finale, and it looks OK to me. Possibly the teensiest bit off. However, accidentals on one of the grace notes will cause a mis-alignment.


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
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John Ruggero
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   Posted 11/6/2016 1:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
Just for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, one could ask why would you would want to override the spacing of individual notes if the program does it well in the first place. I'll admit that it also makes me nervous if a notation program doesn't allow me to move notes horizontally manually but, when I think about it, whenever I've wanted to be able to do this, it was because Finale hadn't done it properly.


As good as it might be, I have my doubts about the infallibility of Dorico's spacing, having already run into basic issues at Notat.io

But even if it reaches "perfection", there is the question of personal taste. And this can not always be set on a global basis.

I also sense basic mistrust of the user by the designers of the program. That bothers me deeply.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
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The better the composer, the better the notation.

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 11/6/2016 11:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
N. Grossingink said...
...Finale has a Measure Tool option called "Extra Space at Beginning/End of Measure". I use this feature extensively for a number of scenarios. Plus the ease with which articulations and expressions can be created, added and manipulated within a Finale file.

N.

I'm just curious what you use this feature for. I use it quite a bit, as well, but hen I use it, it's generally because Finale hasn't done something properly, like space the music in a measure or allow enough space for cross-layer accidentals.


I make lots of small adjustments similar to what Jetcopy has described, usually no more than 1/2 space. To make room for "other stuff". Additionally, I'll add 2 or 3 spaces to the end of a whole note measure, in order to widen the measure in a way that survives music spacing. This is for those whole notes that have a crescendo wedge visually placed to start mid-measure.

Another scenario is where upstem beamed 16ths appear at the end of a measure - the last stem usually crowds the right barline. Adding 1/2 space fixes this.

I'm an "extra space" maniac.


N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 11/6/2016 10:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
N. Grossingink said...
...Finale has a Measure Tool option called "Extra Space at Beginning/End of Measure". I use this feature extensively for a number of scenarios. Plus the ease with which articulations and expressions can be created, added and manipulated within a Finale file.

N.

I'm just curious what you use this feature for. I use it quite a bit, as well, but hen I use it, it's generally because Finale hasn't done something properly, like space the music in a measure or allow enough space for cross-layer accidentals.


I also use this feature extensively. One example I use frequently is with rehearsal numbers. On instruments which are typically written higher in the staff (flutes, violins, etc...) often the first note is touching or too close to the rehearsal number. If I need to keep the positioning of the rehearsal number consistent, then it's necessary to move the notes slightly to the right in a specific measure.

How does Dorico deal with this situation?

Unrelated to this scenario. In Finale, grace notes in a score do not line up vertically if some grace notes contain ledger lines and other grace notes don't. What's Dorico's handling of this?


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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/6/2016 10:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
...Will the program punish me for overriding the spacing of individual notes by making me type numbers in a menu? If so, I won't be able to use the program in spite of all its great automatic features...

Just for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, one could ask why would you would want to override the spacing of individual notes if the program does it well in the first place. I'll admit that it also makes me nervous if a notation program doesn't allow me to move notes horizontally manually but, when I think about it, whenever I've wanted to be able to do this, it was because Finale hadn't done it properly. Dorico even takes things like hairpins into consideration while spacing music, thereby avoiding squashed hairpins and removing the need for manual adjustment in such instances. Many complaints on this forum are from users who have reacted to poor spacing (sometimes as a result of user error) by dragging notes around with the mouse in the Speedy Entry frame or by using the note position tool in special tools. Using either of these handy manual editing tools in this way creates other problems, like poor vertical alignment, etc.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/6/2016 9:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
N. Grossingink said...
...Finale has a Measure Tool option called "Extra Space at Beginning/End of Measure". I use this feature extensively for a number of scenarios. Plus the ease with which articulations and expressions can be created, added and manipulated within a Finale file.

N.

I'm just curious what you use this feature for. I use it quite a bit, as well, but hen I use it, it's generally because Finale hasn't done something properly, like space the music in a measure or allow enough space for cross-layer accidentals.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
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John Ruggero
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   Posted 11/6/2016 8:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
It will also, however, be flexible enough to cater to users for whom the look of the engraving is important and who need everything to be fully editable.


I have no doubt that Dorico will eventually give the user complete control over all elements. But what kind of control? Will the program punish me for overriding the spacing of individual notes by making me type numbers in a menu? If so, I won't be able to use the program in spite of all its great automatic features.

This issue was posed on the Dorico forum and received no response from the developers, who generally jump in immediately. This gave me the impression that they are not in sympathy with the kind of hands-on adjusting that I do. The following response did appear in the thread:

Jim Druckenmiller said...
BUT, clicking on and dragging notes around... I don't think this is currently possible. And I'm not sure if there are any plans on extending this type of editing into the workflow.
from /www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=104167&hilit=how+mouse+friendly


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Vaughan
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   Posted 11/6/2016 7:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
Vaughan said...
Many things are a lot easier than in other scoring programs, like entering a series of dotted quarters in 4/4 and not having to change note values to compensate for barlines.

SimpleEntry will do this, FWIW.

True, but one nice thing about Dorico is that, depending on how you set your notation options, it will also break the note values intelligently at the half-bar, etc.

I spend an inordinate amount of time tweaking things in Finale that the program should do itself without workarounds or resorting to third party plugins. The makers of Dorico are trying to create a program that understands what you're trying to do while giving you the flexibility to alter everything to specific needs or tastes. On the one hand, the excellent defaults of such a program will cater to users who have neither the desire nor the knowledge to concern themselves with the nitty-gritty of correct musical notation, and it will thereby not add to the numerous examples of really abominable engraving which abound nowadays. It will also, however, be flexible enough to cater to users for whom the look of the engraving is important and who need everything to be fully editable.

The fact that a basic function like chords is not yet available attests to the programmers' desire to do it as well as possible from the outset, which is no simple task. Sure, Finale has a chord function, but try using the chord suffix editor or changing the suffix font. This forum is full of complaints about the user-unfriendliness and antiquated UI of the chord tool.

I just set a piece using multiple time signatures and it was a breeze: no workarounds, no hiding barlines, no graphic elements, no independent time signatures with the resulting problems with smart shapes, perfect spacing automatically, etc. Pretty good for a fledgeling program. Just one example.

As I said, it's not ready for a lot of users, including myself, but I believe in the concept and the willingness of the programming team to take all suggestions and complaints seriously.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
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Motet
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   Posted 11/5/2016 7:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes. I think $1M/year spent on Dorico is probably low. Now that the marketing phase has begun, they're spending money on that, too. I am pulling for them, but I wonder how big the market is.


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ttw
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   Posted 11/5/2016 6:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have seen an estimate that it costs about 2.5 times one's salary for a company to hire a worker. This includes the costs of medical insurance, worker's comp, Social Security, office help, office space, utilities, computers, parking space, etc. Some of these are not obvious; it costs to heat and cool and put furniture in, and office; this is part of doing business. Everyone uses office help, even if it's only getting one's checks delivered. Of course my estimates are based on 15 years ago when mandated spending on employees was lower. An employer can cut back on this overhead, but it might become harder to find employees.


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Motet
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   Posted 11/5/2016 5:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A master developer in the U.S. makes over $100K, but I was figuring on benefits and other overhead, which add 50-100% to what the person is paid.


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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 11/5/2016 5:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
The Dorico Wikipedia page lists seven developers, not including Spreadbury, so $1M/year is probably low.


Really? You think each developer gets over $100k per year salary? Where do I sign up?


Christopher Smith

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