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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/1/2016 3:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I applied for the trial of Dorico. Here's what I found.

Like Finale, you have to create an account to get the free trial, which is essentially a full working version with a time-limited licence. The DRM is pretty heavy, which I'm not a fan of.
You have to download an installer which installs a downloader app. Actual download is then 9GB, which corresponds to 10.64Gb of installed data, the vast majority of which is samples.

Among the goodies installed are some nice OTF text fonts: Academico, Crimson and LibreBodoni. The version of Bravura is slightly advanced from the one you can download on the SMuFL website.

I imported an XML file to save time. Unlike Finale, the staff names sit inside the page margin. I managed to change the abbreviated names after a bit of searching, but I couldn’t find a way of removing them completely. The players, instruments and layout abstractions solve a lot of problems, but they add complexity.

When playing , the green line followed the music, but the pages didn’t scroll. I could move them manually. The "Play" mode moves to a MIDI-DAW like display, which looks a very competent MIDI editor. The sounds were a mixed bag: some good, some less good. It didn’t playback grace notes.

The preferences were set to join rests in different “Layers”, but my document stayed separated. It may be an XML thing.

Some beaming was not great and nearly all slurs were pretty awful: manual adjustment or preference alteration would be needed.

My overal impression: what it does, it does very well. However, it doesn't do everything. You can expect a shallow learning curve (i.e. lots of time for a small learning increase) while you get used to it. I couldn't see an obvious way of forcing a system break at a given measure, for instance, though there may well be one.

In short: Dorico may well solve many of the problems that users have with Finale. But don't expect that it won't introduce new ones.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 12/1/2016 3:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been following Dorica for the last month or so, and some recurring issues (for me) are that the program seems to be heavily reliant on memorizing all the keyboard shortcuts, or lots and lots of clicking at tools and typing in stuff to get your end results.
If they continue having a free demo, at some point I will try it. But I doubt I'll be able to wrap my old brain around the new fangled concepts of "flows" and whatnot.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/1/2016 5:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr Wiggy said...
It doesn't do everything.

Can you say more? I understand it doesn't do chord symbols. Is it missing other basic functionality?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/1/2016 5:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
I imported an XML file to save time. Unlike Finale, the staff names sit inside the page margin. I managed to change the abbreviated names after a bit of searching, but I couldn’t find a way of removing them completely. The players, instruments and layout abstractions solve a lot of problems, but they add complexity.


Like Finale, the file you're looking at is the score. There's a tab at the upper left of the document window that says "Full Score". Click the "+" button to make a new tab and pick the part (the music stand icon). That should get rid of the staff names.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

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tisimst
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   Posted 12/2/2016 8:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
I imported an XML file to save time. Unlike Finale, the staff names sit inside the page margin. I managed to change the abbreviated names after a bit of searching, but I couldn’t find a way of removing them completely.

How about: Setup Mode > Setup > Layout Options > Staves and Systems > Staff labels on subsequent systems > None

Dr. Wiggy said...
I couldn't see an obvious way of forcing a system break at a given measure, for instance, though there may well be one.

System breaks can be added virtually anywhere. In Engrave mode, click on the note you want to be at the beginning of the forced system and then click on the "Insert System Break" button in the "Format Systems" left side bar group (it looks like a single staff with a wing-tipped bracket and a vertical dashed line dividing it in half) or type Ctrl+Alt+S (Windows) or Cmd+Alt+S (Mac).


Music Typeface Designer & Engraver - LilyPond | Sibelius | Finale | Dorico | SMuFL | Inkscape | FontForge
leighverlag.blogspot.com | www.musictypefoundry.com

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nordensten
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   Posted 12/3/2016 8:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You can insert a system or frame (=page) break anywhere, say in the middle of a measure, just as easily. Beaming over barlines is effortless. It has a myriad of engraving options for beaming and sluring, which certainly takes more than 10 minutes to explore in full :) It's early days, and it's certainly not perfect. Even on powerful hardware it feels a bit sluggish, but if the speed improvement from the release version to the current update 1.0.10 is anything to go by, this will improve vastly as it matures. Lots of features are currently missing, like arpeggio lines, piano pedaling, cue notes, big time signatures... I've spent an hour daily with it on average since it was launched Oct. 19th, and I'm sufficiently convinced to hang in there. If the developers are given the resources they need to keep working at the current pace it could very well become the new gold standard sooner rather than later...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/3/2016 5:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree with nordensten on all counts; it's exactly how I've been experiencing Dorico. One of the reasons why it's taking so long to get certain features implemented is because Dorico is designed to understand what the user is trying to do. An example: version 1.0 didn't have the possibility to transpose (chromatically) because Dorico completely supports microtonality and getting transposition to work in such an environment is a lot more difficult than what Finale has to be able to do. Version 1.0.10 does support transposition. It's the same story with chord symbols, which are still not supported but which are coming soon. Same with cues. Certain things are very easy to enter; imagine being able to select any two non-contiguous notes and then in a popover window typing pp<>pp and instantly getting two perfectly placed dynamics plus two perfectly aligned hairpins, each time, and also to watch the program automatically adjust the spacing between staves to compensate, as well as intelligently readjust the spacing if a change in other parameters requires it. As with most things, you can subsequently select these objects and, if necessary, move them around with the mouse, with keystrokes, or with the properties panel. Things like kerning and tucking of accidentals, which are only possible in Finale with lengthy workarounds or plugins, are automatic in Dorico. And indeed, effortless beaming over barlines or system breaks at any spot, even mid-measure, without smart shapes and other objects going completely wacky. As far as speed is concerned, certain operations may feel sluggish, but I imported a large orchestral score via XML and scrolling was smooth and effortless, whereas it's still jumpy in Finale. On the other hand, one thing that's hard to beat for speed in Finale is its metatools. There's nothing quicker than holding down a single key and swiping a number of notes which then display an expression or an articulation. Only the most commonly used articulations can be chosen in Dorico with keypresses and I use a macro program to speed up entering dynamics. There's too much more to be said than could possibly be written up in a few words but I agree that Dorico may very well surpass the competition sooner rather than later.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Bret Boulon
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   Posted 12/4/2016 5:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I must say I am very very impressed with what they did.
Missing features : of course, but the gap will keep getting narrower, and in the end Finale and MM really have to worry if they don't react.
Let's hope for them that their next upgrade will not be about adding koto.
Bret
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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/4/2016 6:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The DTP aspects of Dorico are way far ahead of what the competition is capable of. On master pages, you create frames like in Quark or Indesign (or even Word). These can be music frames or different types of text frames. Each could have its own parameters. The music frames cause the entered music to flow from frame to frame. It's possible to insert text frames anywhere. Quite advanced.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Mike Halloran
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   Posted 12/5/2016 1:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I use notation software to improve my workflow. In that regards, Encore is still the fastest for me—too bad that the pages don't look very good. Finale and Overture 5 are close behind. Notion is ok but not for me.

Dorico and MuseScore are so bad in this regard that I cannot take either seriously.

I don't care about desktop engraving—scores that I create need to be read and understood by others. My goal is to make music.

With my handicap, any program that relies on key combinations to accomplish basic tasks is not one I have to consider.


Mike Halloran

Finale 25.1 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12.1, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/8/2016 8:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One big stumbling block for me is that to use Dorico on more than one computer, you have to use the USB dongle, and plug it in to whichever computer you're sitting at.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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nordensten
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   Posted 12/8/2016 6:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, Steinberg is stuck in the dark ages when it comes to customer success :) but (seriously) if you own both Sibelius, Finale and Notion you can crossgrade 3 times...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/9/2016 12:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Even if I upgrade only one of my many licenses, I see no point for a product that (so far) is totally useless to me.

I may change my mind if the workflow ever improves. Big 'if' from what I've seen at this point.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/9/2016 1:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
One big stumbling block for me is that to use Dorico on more than one computer, you have to use the USB dongle, and plug it in to whichever computer you're sitting at.
I'd be ok if it used iLok since so many of my DAW plugins require it.

A proprietary dongle just to run Steinberg? No, thank you.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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RV
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   Posted 12/11/2016 4:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I did just the same... Tried the DEMO, and tampered with it a bit, to see what the fuzz is REALLY about...

Me too - i'm pretty darn impressed what they have put together... just starting the demo doesn't really explain much.
It's when you look at Spreadbury's videos, skimming through some of the features - that makes you go ...awwwwww.... !! and I mean AWWW !

Pretty amazing, really!

Even though, I can't stop thinking that it's not "round" yet, I can't help thinking that this MUST be the next "golden standard"...
- and, of course - it will keep getting better, I guess...


RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM • OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5 (2014d, 2012, 2008, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 10.2.2
HP Laserjet 5200

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 12/12/2016 10:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's better to sleep with the devil you know... I'll take MM's pitch fork in the butt to Steinberg's nachos app any day. They see the big ugly space that has yet to be filled by a notation program. I'd learn Sibelius before buying a limping notation program made from Doritos. Just sayin'... LOL


Os X 10.12.1
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MOTU Track 16

F'n 25; Digital Performer 9.1

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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/12/2016 3:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dorico could hardly be called a limping notation program. It's teething; just wait 'til its fangs are fully grown.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Mike Halloran
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   Posted 12/13/2016 6:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
Dorico could hardly be called a limping notation program. It's teething; just wait 'til its fangs are fully grown.

It's nice that you are so impressed with it, I suppose. I see nothing in it I can use.

The crapware called the Steinberg Download Assistant gave me a clue—I should have paid attention. What a waste of time.


Mike Halloran

Finale 25.1 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12.1, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
G4 running OS 10.4.11 & 9.2 with legacy apps

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/15/2016 5:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've played with it a bit more: Certainly, the engraving is automatically much better, though it's harder (AFAICT) to make the kind of global edits to a region that Finale can.
Finale's expression categories are incredible flexible, and I don't think there's anything similar. I'm trying to find a way of setting the default for some texts to be under the staff while others are over.

Also, my 80 page document takes 15 seconds to load. There doesn't seem to be a way to choose certain styles of typeface (Book Condensed, Display, Ultra Black) for many items, like Lyrics, though no doubt this will all come in due course.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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David Ward
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   Posted 12/15/2016 6:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The only thing that's stopping me from trying Dorico is the need to learn something new at my fairly advanced age (due to be 76 in two months). Although one must keep the brain active, of course…


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK

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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/15/2016 8:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The idea behind Dorico is that the different text items (which aren't text frames; these are treated differently) are placed above or below the staff according to their type. You can't, for example, put tempo marks or changes below the staff, but you can change the placement of other text objects on an individual basis. Under Edit Font Styles you can change the font of different text types. I've already complained about the fact that the font weights are predetermined (light, normal, demibold, bold, black), so you can't choose condensed, for example. They have said to want to change this fairly soon. Nice that Dorico understands when a staff is for a vocalist and places dynamics and hairpins above, although you can change this, as well. I really like being able to select two non-contiguous notes, type p<>p and have the program place those two dynamics and two hairpins perfectly which then change position intelligently to accommodate other objects. And the engraving is indeed considerably superior by default. One thing that is unbeaten in Finale, though, is the whole metatools function. Selecting a tool like the articulation or expression tools and then having an entire set of self-determined keypresses at your disposal for entering items is very convenient and quick. In Dorico, I've made macros for the most common dynamics and the most common articulations are by default already under keypresses. One handy feature is that you can select practically anything (even non-contiguous items) and copy them to other spots. Soon they plan to implement the placement of object like dynamics to multiple staves simultaneously. I really like the idea of flows which each contain music or text or both. This is very useful for things like footnotes with musical examples or ossias, etc. It's already very advanced and improving rapidly. I especially like the attention they pay on the forum to users' comments.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/15/2016 9:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
The idea behind Dorico is that the different text items (which aren't text frames; these are treated differently) are placed above or below the staff according to their type. You can't, for example, put tempo marks or changes below the staff, but you can change the placement of other text objects on an individual basis.

Yes, I found out how to flip the position individually from Above to Below easily: but can I make a "type" that is always below? Finale's expression categories are so flexible and useful in this regard.

At this stage, there are still things that I would spend time fiddling with: they're just different things!


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/15/2016 6:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
The idea behind Dorico is that the different text items (which aren't text frames; these are treated differently) are placed above or below the staff according to their type. You can't, for example, put tempo marks or changes below the staff...


That comment brought me up short, having just placed an accel. and several other tempo indications between the staves of a Chopin Etude, just like the autograph.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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Knut
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   Posted 12/16/2016 4:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As you know, John, I'm a proponent of the modern style tempo indications (above the staff and bold, non-italic), so I personally don't mind Dorico's present behavior. Even though it's currently impossible to alter the default vertical placement of tempo markings, I'm sure that the flexibility you're looking for will be added in due course, at least for tempo modifications like rit. or accel., which sometimes are seen between the staves in piano scores.

Until then, the application does not prevent you from dragging the markings below the staff if desired.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/16/2016 8:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Knut. that capability is sufficient. I am going to withhold further comments about Dorico until I am able to try out the software; it is really unfair and unproductive.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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