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Shnootre
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   Posted 12/9/2016 10:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What's the best way to deal w/ this situation? I play around w/ it every time and never come up with a satisfactory solution (see picture)


Daniel Sonenberg
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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 12/9/2016 10:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would flip the tuplets. That would also remove the brackets (in my defaults for tuplets) which I am perfectly comfortable with.

In my opinion, the slur on the correct side outweighs the tuplet on the correct side. I would be interested to hear if this agrees with the authorities.


Christopher Smith

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Shnootre
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   Posted 12/9/2016 10:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes - good point. In this case the tuplets really should be flipped, actually. I will post another example, though, where it's tougher!


Daniel Sonenberg
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Shnootre
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   Posted 12/9/2016 11:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's a better example... what's the best choice here?


Daniel Sonenberg
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/10/2016 1:43 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christopher Smith said...
I would flip the tuplets. That would also remove the brackets (in my defaults for tuplets) which I am perfectly comfortable with.

In my opinion, the slur on the correct side outweighs the tuplet on the correct side. I would be interested to hear if this agrees with the authorities.
Beat me to the punch. The brackets are redundant when the 3 is under the beam.


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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/10/2016 1:48 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Shnootre said...
Here's a better example... what's the best choice here?
Flip the brackets as before but retain them. Move the dynamic and crescendo down to make room.


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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/10/2016 9:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike solution is good, although there may be other situations where this might not be a viable option. You could conceivably leave the tuplet brackets where they are and move the slur to be above them. If you change the second tuplet bracket to be flat (smart tuplets... pff) and perhaps nudge both down slightly, the slur won't be so distorted. In this case I prefer the attached.


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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 12/10/2016 11:29 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Another solution:
Put the slur below where the tuplet brackets are above.

Peter


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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/10/2016 11:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In a situation like this, I think it is better to discard the normal rules for stem direction:


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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 12/10/2016 12:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
In a situation like this, I think it is better to discard the normal rules for stem direction:


Wow, that seems like the most radical solution to me. I would have kept the stem direction as much as possible, but flipped the tuplet to allow the slur to stay in the right direction. Mike Halloran's solution (first choice), or Vaughn's (second) would be mine. But take that as authoritatively as it is meant, which is to say, I dunno.


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Shnootre
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   Posted 12/10/2016 1:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Friends

I am GREATLY appreciative of this discussion and these examples. (wish I had asked this question sooner!)


Daniel Sonenberg
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Motet
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   Posted 12/10/2016 1:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christopher Smith said...
In my opinion, the slur on the correct side outweighs the tuplet on the correct side.

In my opinion, the tuplet number generally should go on the beam (or stem) side, and the slur on the notehead side, so there's really no weighing to be done.


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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/10/2016 1:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Authority" is the wrong term here. More than one person can be correct, here, right?

Unless we are in class with an instructor to correct us, we make decisions all through the process.

My opinion is based on how I, as a performer, think it's easiest to read and follow. Other times, I'll make these formatting and layout decisions based on how it will look to the conductor—especially if me.

To me, the cleanest, easiest to read solution is the best. There are standard formatting principles but, at their core, clarity is the goal. When rules conflict, as in these excellent examples, decisions must be made. You can't always let Finale do it for you.

True story. When we went to a parent's open house at a UC campus famed for its medical school, the music school made the following pitch: More students at med schools have music as a major or minor than any other discipline. Why? It turns out that musicians make good doctors. They are used to making decisions while they work.


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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 12/10/2016 2:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Christopher Smith said...
In my opinion, the slur on the correct side outweighs the tuplet on the correct side.

In my opinion, the tuplet number generally should go on the beam (or stem) side, and the slur on the notehead side, so there's really no weighing to be done.


But the slur goes OVER notes with mixed stem directions, which is what this is. I would flip the tuplet in those cases as being the less essential item of the two.


Christopher Smith

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Motet
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   Posted 12/10/2016 2:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In the first example, which I thought you were talking about, the stems all point down, but the numbers are on top.

In the case of mixed stem direction, it is of course a judgement call. But if the notes are beamed, there's less clutter leaving the numbers on the beam side, since no brackets are required.

To my eye, slurs flipped the "wrong way" are usually not egregious. I sometimes do this with notes below the staff if there are hairpins.


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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/10/2016 3:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If it were me, I might use process of elimination:

1. One could flip the stems, but I think we expect anything above the middle line to be stems down so I would not flip.
2. One could try and move the slur to above the tuplet bracket, but I think slurs need to be close to the note or as normal as possible.
3. The tuplet brackets could be flipped to underneath leaving the slur and stems up or down in place, but some might not like that solution.
4. You could even move the tuplets above the slur, but that is a bit awkward as well.
5. Or maneuver the slur the best you can around the brackets, but that might be quite difficult.

I would go with 3 as I think tuplets are probably the most flexible in terms of what a performer might see on the page.


Bryan Doughty
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/10/2016 4:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I like John Ruggero's solution, speaking as a performer.

As an engraver, and having only one steady client, I have to do it their way. That would be the slur first, with the triplet brackets above.

N.


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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/10/2016 7:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, N.

You might tell your client that stemming with the phrasing is making a comeback. I see it now in some of the Wiener Urtext editions. http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/look_inside?R=5676152 Look at the example first page of Scherzo no 2.


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Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 12/10/2016 9:16:51 PM (GMT-6)

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