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RV
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Total Posts : 173
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 7:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...after having tried Dorico(DEMO)... I had to struggle a bit with my thoughts about Finale - for the future.
After having tampered with the software since about 1988, I find it rather annoying to face the fact that it needs an "oil-Bath" to get it moving again.
- not that it doesn't work at all... but; if MM doesn't hear the (VERY LOUD) Alarm-Bells ringing... I might be forced to jump the train. Don't feel like it. a bit !

Why not instead join forces, and thoroughly discuss together what should be changed??

I have myself started to make a somewhat of a "mockup" version of "Finale 2017" already !!
- To get the "real-feel" of the menus (that I have changed quite a bit) - I re-created all menus in a programming software.
Also, I tampered a bit with Photoshop, and tried to get a grip of what I would like to see.
A first view could be this. Minor changes, but still - for me extremely elemental (see attached File).

Now, I don't know if MM is interested in "silly crap" like this - at all?!
- I would (seriously now) - like to have a whole thread - with sub-threads, where we could discuss "possible changes", so to make it what fits the community the best.
Since we all work so different - and on different music).
Each Sub-Thread would be a program-Topic.
I think it would be a GREAT thing!

...we'll see how it goes...

Will let you know, of course...


RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM • OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5 (2014d, 2012, 2008, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 10.2.2
HP Laserjet 5200


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Mike Rosen
himself



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Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 8:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RV,
That's fine. But, given that this forum will go away in a couple of weeks, and the replacement offered by MakeMusic is absolutely worthless, might I suggest that you come join us at finaleforum.com, and start the thread, there.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/12/2016 2:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So Simple Entry and Speedy Entry (and presumably HyperScribe) would all be under a tool/mode called "Note Entry", and selected from inside there? You've still got icons for Simple and Speedy on your toolbar, so I'm not sure what this brings.
Bear in mind that any change to the UI will upset people who have got used to certain keypresses or have large numbers of keyboard macro scripts. And for almost every new workflow method that MM has introduced over the years, there's someone for whom that is an obstacle to their productivity. :p

I would like to see:

1. An "Attributes" floating panel, from which various settings for the currently selected object can be adjusted. So Measure Attributes for a selected measure; dot position, size and font for a selected dot, Text attributes for a text box, etc.

2. An improvement to the selection dialogs. Zooming in doesn't actually zoom in. Also fewer "nested" dialogs.

3. The Chord Suffix Designer, Shape Designer, and other Designers need a massive overhaul.

4. A Major effort to fix many of the long-standing notation bugs and shortcomings. There's no point re-arranging the chairs if the dance doesn't change.


I think now is a good time to put forward suggestions: MM seems to be motivated by their new owners and by the competition. But remember they are only a small company with limited resources, and they have the 'baggage' of legacy files that must be opened.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 12/12/2016 1:57:16 AM (GMT-6)

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/12/2016 6:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dorico looks ok on paper. Nothing else about it has impressed me. Perhaps it will someday but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Dr. Wiggy said...
...
I would like to see:

1. An "Attributes" floating panel, from which various settings for the currently selected object can be adjusted. So Measure Attributes for a selected measure; dot position, size and font for a selected dot, Text attributes for a text box, etc.

2. An improvement to the selection dialogs. Zooming in doesn't actually zoom in. Also fewer "nested" dialogs.

3. The Chord Suffix Designer, Shape Designer, and other Designers need a massive overhaul.

4. A Major effort to fix many of the long-standing notation bugs and shortcomings. There's no point re-arranging the chairs if the dance doesn't change.


I think now is a good time to put forward suggestions: MM seems to be motivated by their new owners and by the competition. But remember they are only a small company with limited resources, and they have the 'baggage' of legacy files that must be opened.

That's more along the ways I think.

The installers could be improved as well.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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RV
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Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 173
 
   Posted 12/12/2016 7:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...

Bear in mind that any change to the UI will upset people who have got used to certain keypresses or have large numbers of keyboard macro scripts. And for almost every new workflow method that MM has introduced over the years, there's someone for whom that is an obstacle to their productivity.


:) I AM very aware of this, Wiggy !!!
- that is why I would like to start a thread, were many USERS discuss open what, - and WHY they want things in a certain way...


RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM • OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5 (2014d, 2012, 2008, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 10.2.2
HP Laserjet 5200

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RV
Registered Member



Click to send RV email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to RVAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 173
 
   Posted 12/12/2016 7:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...

I would like to see:

1. An "Attributes" floating panel, from which various settings for the currently selected object can be adjusted. So Measure Attributes for a selected measure; dot position, size and font for a selected dot, Text attributes for a text box, etc.

2. An improvement to the selection dialogs. Zooming in doesn't actually zoom in. Also fewer "nested" dialogs.

3. The Chord Suffix Designer, Shape Designer, and other Designers need a massive overhaul.

4. A Major effort to fix many of the long-standing notation bugs and shortcomings. There's no point re-arranging the chairs if the dance doesn't change.



Very nice - and creative input.
1. THIS is a very nice thought. Will se if I can spin-off a bit here.. (it IS a rather nested issue, I'd say...).
2. I started already to "Re-Design" some of the windows... firstly to get a more homogene look... - but, also here; it's RIDICULOUSLY nested!
3. LOL! We need a NEW Chord-Designer. (the one we have (like so many other windows) is from 1992 !! - absolutely ridiculous).
4. Indeed, this is true... but; because of the happenings on the market - we MUST do SOMETHING - QUICK, even if we (at first) only re-arrange the chairs... :P


RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM • OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5 (2014d, 2012, 2008, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 10.2.2
HP Laserjet 5200

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/13/2016 8:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wanda. A thread called Wanda.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/13/2016 9:58:45 PM (GMT-6)

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RV
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Click to send RV email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to RVAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 173
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 7:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
THE RE-ANIMATION OF FINALE

There is something special on the market going on, that -by all means- is creating a “buzz”...
You know; that just-released-notation-program from Steinberg: “Dorico”.
Although the application is not really “finished” and yet really useable for a big, serious work, the signs all point in the
direction of “New Market-Leader”. I’d say; in about one years time we’ll have a new “heavy-weight champion”.
(I tampered a bit with the Demo, and especially looked at Daniel Spreadbury’s introduction-videos...
having done that, I can just say: - it is extremely well thought through!! ).

Well, you could think; "so why bother anymore? ...Just go for it, then".
- Actually, I was pretty much thinking this myself, to be honest.
But, then one thought stroke me... and I can’t get this thought out of my mind;

I have been working with Finale since 1989, so - I can probably say - I know this program.
If I switch to Dorico I obviously will have to “dump” all of this (program-) knowledge,
which logically really ain’t something I’m looking forward to... So, my idea was to make this "last-desperate-try"
to Re-Animate and polish-up the Finale- Application, before "the market" kills it completely.

By all means; It is still an amazing Engraving-program! It’s just a bloody MESS, at the present!
"Bloated" is not even a word that would suffice to describe it... it’s way past that stage!
It desperately needs some redesign and slim-down work! ...or to define it better;
• The user-interface needs better user-friendliness !

Now, I ain’t a real programmer per se, and I don't know the source-code "setup" of Finale, so I can't tell what kind of effort the coding-work would be to change these things. But, I assume that it would be a very good help for MakeMusic (MM) and the programmer(s), if we -all together- really define what is "wrong" - and, most important; make a "picture" of how it should be.
This, then of course, by creating “mockup”-pictures of the changes... (so that we can see how it should look).
If then MM will implement these "suggestions" or not into upcoming versions; is not our decision ...but at least we tried.


I think one of the biggest issues that MakeMusic needs to clear for themselves is; "What does Finale really need to deliver" ?
Logically, I can’t speak for all users, since each and everyone has different expectations and needs whilst creating their scores.
Nevertheless; not seldom, I ask myself: "Is it really necessary to have the “one-app-that-can-do-all" ?
...instead of working with it a rock-solid Engraving-Work-Horse” ?
Is it really necessary to have built-in audio-engine support for “all” Libraries on the market? Is it even possible?
Doesn’t most people who actually do score “block-Buster-size” Film-scores (using "the Best" SoundLibraries), swap to a dedicated Audio-Sequencer when it’s time for “The Sound” ? Why not leave it at that, then?
And, instead - really concentrate on making a "more than descent" BUILT-IN playback-synth, that works 102% - with ALL functions! (except “super-realistic-sound”).
Concerning the givens, I bet that most scoring “based on sound/samples” will be done in Dorico in the near future. Not necessarily because it is better, but because Dorico has the "cubase Audio- Engine" under the hood. This is a pretty "heavy feature".
Finale doesn’t have something this heavy, by far ! But; Why bother?
Skip this (massive) field. Make the best out the situation (as you do, at the moment) by implementing “connecting-sockets”, like ReWire... etc.


I might be wrong, but my opinion is that Finale is still the most versatile engraving-application on the market for the engravers around. With engravers; I mean the "pro-users". Not the “once-in-a- while-creating-scores-for-my-students” user... no, the actual engravers; is it freelance or in-house.
If I were MM - I would desperately try to strengthen this market-position, albeit it being a ridiculously small niche-market, to keep supplying the needs for those engravers. ...They need Finale !!
Of course, there needs to be money coming in somehow, to keep things “rolling”... My view of this is a bit “unorthodox”, I guess - but I think that in the long run, it’s the only way:
If I was the “Marketing-Manager” at MM; I would push much more in advertising the application that is “small Finale” (is it called Finale Allegro?)
- The Application for a broad user-Base. Not just some teachers... but ALL Teachers !
The big “underline” in the advertisement should be something like;
"yes we CAN make difficult software too...but do you NEED difficult ?
And it has to be cheap! ...and most important of all - it has to DELIVER!!
If they could split their application-architecture this way - and make it really clear, there wouldn’t be any problems in Finale with the need to “make simple-entry items well visible - so that all new users can find them...” (sorry, just using this as one example - no pun using simple edit!)

I could do a comparison with a "normal" person believing that he could just jump into a F1-car and drive away like the pro’s.
NOBODY really believes that... do they? ...well - not any "sane" persons anyway. (if that is something good, I can't tell) :P
Sure; finding the steering-wheel isn’t that hard... but ...that’s about it, I think.
Compare this with Finale; to import a MIDI-File isn’t that hard to do either... - but then what??
...well, I’m sorry I think that MM has to politely ignore those (very naive) new users, who believe they can open up one of the most ridiculously complex softwares around, and "quickly" create a nice score... It just doesn't work. It SHOULD WORK in Finale Allegro, though!!! (never tried it).
Instead of a F1 car, give them a "juicy" offer to buy a dirt-cheap Mercedes.
..if this new user actually is serious about his engraving-intentions, the user WILL upgrade later; if the word has it that Finale "Is the real thing" (you have to get/remain there first).
To try to make Finale "for all" is really not the way to go!!! ..this is quite crucial, I think.

I was actually quite amused looking at a “Dorico-in-development”-video, where Spreadbury tries to explain that music-notation is tremendously complex !!
“there are SO MANY rules, and possibilities, that even the “best-of-the-best” don’t know them all...”
Well; how should it be possible to make an application handling all this, “simple for a new user” ?? (and, believe you me; Finale can handle just about ALL of these things, even if it’s quirky at times).

...As sad as it might be - I don’t believe Finale can be about “making big money”... Not anymore.
25 years ago - it was a revelation! - today, even freewares are quite good. - today, I believe Finale is more a "belief in our music-culture"...
Therefore; I urge MM to LISTEN to their users!! Let them do the “thinking” - and you “sell it”.

I will try to make some "photoshop-mockups" in the next days, and post some of the ideas here...
I politely ask you to look at all of these as they appear, and I would be glad if there could be some kind of thought-exchange, to make this REALLY good.
Mind you; this is NOT a "solo" - it should be a "grande Tutti - con forza" !!!

I sincerely hope it turns out great!
cheers

Raphael Vang


RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM • OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5 (2014d, 2012, 2008, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 10.2.2
HP Laserjet 5200

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RV
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   Posted 12/14/2016 7:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...here my crude ideas: ...or where I am at the moment, in "mocking-up"... :P

I "stole" the Toolbar from Photoshop 4 (that I still use), and I must say - I CLEARLY prefer this light-gray look before all these dark-gray, or even black interfaces of todays applications. It's just timeless and functional. Just what we need.

I Sugest a Main Toolbar (with NO Title) that only can be turned off in the menus. The Playback-buttons should be treated the same way.
oh, and I clearly suggest to simplify the playback buttons/field to "basic" by default... and have additional options to be added, like time... sync... etc.
(I CERTAINLY don't think very many users actually NEED the time with a 1000th fraction to be rolling constantly...) :P

Biggest change, though - would be my suggestion to have a "Inspector-Frame" on the right. (Naturally, also to be switched off by needs).
- This "Inspector" shows what the Document-settings show now... but in real-time.
This would save a TREMENDOUS time of not needing to open windows and options all the time.
..
feel free to "rant" :D

cheers


(ah, and BTW. The menu is a bit garbled at the moment. Ignore it!)


RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM • OS 10.11.6
Finale 2014.5 (2014d, 2012, 2008, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 10.2.2
HP Laserjet 5200

Post Edited (RV) : 12/14/2016 2:35:28 PM (GMT-6)


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Mike Halloran
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Total Posts : 105
 
   Posted 12/15/2016 11:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RV said...
THE RE-ANIMATION OF FINALE

that is “small Finale” (is it called Finale Allegro?)


Allegro hasn't existed for years. The lineup consists of Finale 25, Print Music 2014 and Notepad 2012. Here's the breakdown:

/www.finalemusic.com/products/compare-finale-products/

I agree that a good, simplified (and current!), "down and dirty" version of Finale should exist and that it should work with the same Finale license for those of us who have it. Something you could use to knock out quick charts, lead sheets etc. It should function as a stand-alone app yet open up in Finale for the heavy lifting. If Print Music and Notepad were updated for current OS and could run under my Finale license, that would work.

In the mean time, Encore is still my down and dirty go-to. I can use MusicXML to export it to Finale. This works well but Encore is ancient and only supports MusicXML 1.3—lyrics and most expressions do not export.


Mike Halloran

Finale 25.1 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12.1, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
G4 running OS 10.4.11 & 9.2 with legacy apps

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