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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/22/2016 9:37 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why do I still have to click the "More Options" button in the Time Signature dialog at least twice before it responds?

Why do I have to click the 'play' button in the Playback Controls window more —often than not— at least twice before it responds?


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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jim dukey
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   Posted 12/22/2016 12:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Also, clicking on Expressions/Smart Shapes handles, takes multiple tries, and stopping playback, the same.
Since I've been on Sierra I have to double click several times to open folders, tho.
Also, the screen flips around in Scroll all the time, can be very annoying.
Those are my only 2 complaints about 25.1.
Haven't worked up the courage to go to 25.2.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/22/2016 2:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There must be issues with the Mac OS that are not easily addressed, because there are so many problems reported here that the Windows version doesn't have. I imagine the Mac is a moving target since they update the OS often and don't seem to care much about compatibility. You might consider running the Windows version in a virtual machine instead. I think user Octo here does that; perhaps he can say how well that's working out.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/23/2016 7:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
They should not sell a Mac version, if they are not capable of producing or even willing to produce a decently working Mac version. Simple as that.

The annoyances I mentioned (and there are many, many more) are not new. They have all been introduced by some previous version, mentioned and discussed here more than once, pointed out to MakeMusic's support centre and totally ignored by the same since. Things that simply don't work, things that are inconsistent throughout the application (text edit dialogs, e.g.), things that contradict what the application claims (constraint dragging doesn't apply to slurs, e.g.), etcetera, etcetera.

MakeMusic is not going to tell me what system I should be working on. I work on a Mac (and have no problem whatsoever with any other piece of software in this respect). I'm not going to install a Windows OS on my Mac to compensate for the incompetence of MakeMusic. If MakeMusic can't deliver for that the Mac, they shouldn't pretend to sell for that platform. If MakeMusic can't deliver for that platform, I'll buy a product that can.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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jim dukey
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   Posted 12/24/2016 12:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been very happy with 25.1.
The problems I've had are minor.
Not going anywhere.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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Motet
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   Posted 12/24/2016 1:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music, of course what you're saying is reasonable. I was just providing you an alternative to the major step of moving to some other product. I agree it's far from ideal.

I asked a friend who does audio editing and production on the Mac about this and he said it was a perennial problem with new versions of the OS breaking his software and the vendor having to scramble to make it work with a new version. I suspect it has to do with the complexity of the software as to whether its vulnerable to Apple's changes. MM is I guess guitly of not being able to respond quickly and reliably enough.

By contrast, I still occasionally run Finale 2005 on old files and it works perfectly, despite three major revisions to Windows.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/24/2016 9:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't think that Finale has ever followed all the requirements of the Apple Toolkit. 25.2 comes closest.

In the past, this wasn't such a big concern but, as Apple tightens the requirements with every OS release, it becomes more important that MM get with the program. How they do it while retaining all the features is a big problem--no doubt about it.

Making the OS secure is a constant struggle. Older software that doesn't keep up is going to be even more incompatible. We've already seen that. It will surprise me if 2014.5 functions at all in the next release.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/24/2016 10:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...

By contrast, I still occasionally run Finale 2005 on old files and it works perfectly, despite three major revisions to Windows.

Yea, right... except that, by staying 32 bit, you aren't really running a major revision of Windows. The second you are forced to run 64 bit because some critical app requires it, Finale 2005 will not run without a helper app and/or other tweaks.

That's ok. I keep a WinXP machine and a G4 around that has Finale 1998 (OS 9) and 2002 (OS 10.4.11). Not that I need them — Finale 25.2 opens and runs my oldest files without a problem as long as I'm not trying to view them in Sonata. I still have files in old formats will open on my iMac without conversion on these old machines first.

So it goes.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

Post Edited (MikeHalloran) : 12/26/2016 8:26:38 PM (GMT-6)

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/24/2016 10:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
Why do I still have to click the "More Options" button in the Time Signature dialog at least twice before it responds?

Why do I have to click the 'play' button in the Playback Controls window more —often than not— at least twice before it responds?


No idea. Both work fine for me in 25.2.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Motet
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   Posted 12/25/2016 1:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As far as I know, Mike, 64-bit Windows will run 32-bit apps just fine. People have been running versions of Finale prior to 25 on 64-bit Windows for some years now. Or is Finale 2005 different in some way?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/26/2016 10:32:01 AM (GMT-6)

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Zoots
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   Posted 12/26/2016 11:06 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, 64-bit Windows will run 32-bit applications just fine. You must have the right "bit versions" of device drivers though. If your device doesn't have a 64-bit driver than you are out of luck making the device available on your system.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/26/2016 4:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, why are those annoyances still not fixed?


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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Motet
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   Posted 12/26/2016 8:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why are you asking us?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/26/2016 10:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
So, why are those annoyances still not fixed?


Isn't the real answer they are not fixed because us users keep buying the product therefore MM has no incentive to fix any issues whatsoever?


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/26/2016 10:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zoots said...
Yes, 64-bit Windows will run 32-bit applications just fine. You must have the right "bit versions" of device drivers though. If your device doesn't have a 64-bit driver than you are out of luck making the device available on your system.


Exactly. Simple as can be. Oh, wait a minute, we're discussing Windows...
www.howtogeek.com/228689/how-to-make-old-programs-work-on-windows-10/

Anyway, you might be able to get Finale 2005 to run in Win64 but it won't be as simple as double-clicking on it. This is true of all versions older than 2010 as I recall.

And why is Windows being constantly brought up in the Mac forum anyway???


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/26/2016 10:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
So, why are those annoyances still not fixed?

They work fine for me. Have you called support?


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/27/2016 1:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...
Writer of Music said...
So, why are those annoyances still not fixed?

They work fine for me. Have you called support?


From all the times I have contacted support since early 1990's, not one (!) issue was solved. The standard answer is that they are thankful I brought the problem to their attention, that it was forwarded to the tech guys and might get fixed in some future version. Multiple future versions later none of them is fixed and more annoyances have been added.

Finale could very well do with an overhaul from the ground up, or rather: a complete rewrite. There are so many inconsistencies within the app, so many incongruences with Apple guidelines for applications for the Mac OS, so many things that need to be restructured, etcetera, etcetera.

By the way, they cannot work fine for you. Some annoyances may not occur as frequent or at all in your set up, but others are written into the application, so they cannot but occur in your setup as well (albeit that they may annoy you less than they do annoy me).
For instance: can you edit text the same way in all dialogs? No, you can't. You'll have to realise first in which dialog you are to know how you can edit text. The active or inactive state of menu items is no help, because several menu items cannot be used even though they show up as active. Some key combo's as short cuts for menu commands cannot be used, even though they show up in the menu and the menu item is active and can be used.
The list goes on and grows with every new release.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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jim dukey
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   Posted 12/27/2016 1:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Get a job.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 12/27/2016 2:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seriously, if Finale causes you all the annoyance, grief, frustration and anger that is evident in your posts, then you need to try something else. MuseScore and Denemo (a GUI for Lilypond) are free, but very capable. Sibelius is the current professional alternative, and Dorico, though still in its infancy, is well supported and has frequent updates scheduled. Overture 5 is by the team that made Encore, and is a new version this year.

You can get crossgrades, so your investment in Finale still has some value.

Software is just a tool to get the job done: if it doesn't work for you, get another one. Ironically, MakeMusic have nurtured MusicXML, which means you can transfer your files to other products.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Motet
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   Posted 12/27/2016 2:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Complaining to a bunch of users is certainly not a very good use of your time.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/27/2016 4:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
[quote]Finale could very well do with an overhaul from the ground up, or rather: a complete rewrite.

I have some bad news. Finale 25 is the 64 bit rewrite that we've been promised since 2012 and didn't get in 2013. Does it have growing pains? Yes but, overall, it works pretty well for me. Even the things that you say don't. Get over it.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/27/2016 4:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...


By the way, they cannot work fine for you. Some annoyances may not occur as frequent or at all in your set up, but others are written into the application, so they cannot but occur in your setup as well (albeit that they may annoy you less than they do annoy me).
For instance: can you edit text the same way in all dialogs? No, you can't. You'll have to realise first in which dialog you are to know how you can edit text. The active or inactive state of menu items is no help, because several menu items cannot be used even though they show up as active. Some key combo's as short cuts for menu commands cannot be used, even though they show up in the menu and the menu item is active and can be used.
The list goes on and grows with every new release.


Then why upgrade? We upgrade, MM doesn't see a problem and the annoyances continue.

The annoyances you have listed don't bother me, but that is probably because I have used the program for over 20 years. If these issues were fixed, it might actually annoy me more :)

The double clicking to get something to work or stop (like playback) is annoying, but I get over it because of the output I can produce. The problem for MM is that all these little annoyances do add up and if anything comes along that is better then I think many of us will leave Finale in favor of a better product. Right now that product does not exist so I ignore the annoyances and get my work done so I can eat dinner.

25.1 (have not bumped to .2 yet) works for me just fine, but it could be much better. Finale can always be better, but the company has to make the choice to make it better. I really hope Dorico gives MM a massive kick in the ass, but a truly usable Dorico could be years down the road.


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/27/2016 8:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I use Finale since version 3.

I do have a job, thank you.

I have seen the annoyances grow and increase in number since the early 1990's (version 3, as said).

25.2 'works' for me as well (apart from the known bugs and a handful new ones), that's why I call the issues with the app 'annoyances' and not 'problems'.

All of you encounter the same annoyances (or at least most of them), but they bother you less. I wonder why? Why are you willing to stick up with inconsistencies and incongruences within an application that could be, should be fixed? They probably bother you not so much because you're used to them, you learned to work with the app in spite of the annoyances and you're not willing to ask for value for your money from a commercial company. Also, you don't give a crap about people who'll have to learn to work with the app from scratch and bump into these annoyances. Result: the app has a learning curve far higher than would be necessary had it been written properly and had the long time users been assertive enough to demand decent software from the successive developers.

"Pretty well", dear sirs, simply isn't good enough. You all have paid good money for this app, many of you (including me) have paid quite a few thousand for an application that falls short if you're willing to look at it with an unbiased eye. It is said bias that prohibits you from being as critical as you are entitled to be. Your choice, not mine. I respect yours, many of you obviously don't respect mine. Who now has reason to be disgruntled? Then why are you?

But do remember that being satisfied with the app 'as it is' is not helping the app forward. Eventually the app will become unworkable for all the inconsistencies and incongruences imbedded, for all workarounds and surrogate solutions needed and come to a grinding halt. Indeed, as BvdPress says, Finale works 'just fine', but it could be much better. To get it 'much better' we will have to tell MakeMusic to make it better, not to stifle everyone who dares to utter a critical note. And that's what I do and have done for many years. What will you do?


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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jim dukey
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   Posted 12/28/2016 1:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No one is stifling you,
but you come across as an annoying complainer.
Has that helped improve Finale?
Evidently not.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/28/2016 3:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Must I remind you that you were the one who told me to "get a job"?
Have you read the other thread (about slurs)?
I ask questions, serious questions about issues with Finale. Perhaps not HUMONGOUS, fatal issues, but issues nonetheless. And they may not bug you as much as they bug me, but is that good enough a reason to encounter me with the hostility that some of you find necessary to deploy? Do I not have a right to point out flaws in the app as anyone else? Am I not allowed to be critical when I pay good money for an application that has its shortcomings? Many of you may not like the wordings I choose (English is not my first language, not even second or third), but is that a justification for the childish behaviour of some of you?

It is not normal for a Mac application to not be able to e.g. edit text in every text editing dialog in the same way. An application, supposedly written for the Mac OS, should behave as a Mac application, simple as that, and Finale doesn't in quite a number of respects. And yes, I do get a bit irritable when I pay good money for a Mac application and get —for the umptiest time— the advise to use the app under Windows.

My annoyance was and is aimed at the app and the developers of the app, who have ignored to correct what was wrong for years on end already. My annoyance was never aimed at any of you personally, whereas some of you have been very hostile to me as a person, time and again. I care very little about that, by all means: put me on the ignore list if you're that pettish, but I do feel sorry for those who thought it necessary to publicly illustrate their personality by falling back on insults, name calling and other childish behaviour. I would advise them to delete their pitiful messages before they will be inedibly on display for all times.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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