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jim dukey
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   Posted 1/1/2017 4:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe you need to go 10.12.2.
Or wait for the next Full Moon.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 1/1/2017 10:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...

You assume facts not in evidence.

I don't understand why you think that, if you are having a particular problem, everyone else is.


Because, mr. Halloran, the app is written with the same code for you as for me. That's why these annoyances are the same for you as for me and everyone else. Once again, for all who are evidently not willing to read carefully but are all too eager to be judgmental, I'm not speaking about bugs here, but about the sloppy way Finale for Mac has been written.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/31/2016 8:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
Motet said...
I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


May I ask why it is so much more acceptable to some of you to false delude MakeMusic and pretend that all is peachy than to complain about what is identifiably and demonstrably wrong with the app?

You assume facts not in evidence.

I don't understand why you think that, if you are having a particular problem, everyone else is. Why should we? Are we runnning the same plugins, loading the same libraries? Using the same preferences? Without knowing your setup (especially since you never mention it), I can assure you we're not. Don't assume you speak for all of us. You don't.

When I have a tech issue, I howl at the moon—MM support in this case—until it is addressed. I only bring it up here if the solution helps others.

BTW, I have had very few issues in 25 and the bugs that affected me have all been fixed.

My big issue now is that the online Help files are hideously slow and inaccurate. I want a searchable.pdf file. Perhaps MM will understandmthat a decent manual would cost them less than the current system that clogs their phone lines but, until that day, I call if I can't find what I need. Generally when I can't find it, the reason is because it's not there and the files get updated a little later.

I only call in on my issues. Yours don't concern me.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/29/2016 5:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zoots said...
Most support organizations run on a "no news is good news" basis.


If MM uses this method, with people going to different forums they should be celebrating not just good but amazing news!!

Wiggy - I don't find them tedious, but rather reality that far too many do not want to acknowledge. We all must work together to make a better Finale, but MM has to be part of it or we all lose. Right now, MM's choice of eliminating this Forum is one way for use all to lose.


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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Zoots
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   Posted 12/29/2016 12:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have no doubt he is not the only one reporting buts but OTOH a lot of people see somebody else experiencing the same bug and assume it is reported and take no further action.

Even if it is reported, there is something to be said for anybody having a genuine problem to report it especially since we don't have any evidence that MM over-reacts to a bug report and it does tell the company that there is indeed a widespread problem rather than just somebody with a peculiar computer setup or finger-trouble - pushing the wrong buttons. Most support organizations run on a "no news is good news" basis.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/29/2016 12:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But I'm not speaking about bugs here, Dr. Wiggy and I'm not 'ranting' or 'fulminating' against anything. I'm speaking about the inconsistencies and incongruences in the application, the way it doesn't act as an application written for the Mac OS should act.

This thread has nothing to do with my other threads, why do you wish to involve the other threads into this discussion? Isn't this or shouldn't this at least be a discussion about the topic at hand, not about me or how some of you choose to perceive my personality? Then why are some of you so keen on always dragging me back into the discussion?

Isn't being pragmatic perhaps the underlying problem in the first place? Aren't many of us used to work our way around problems for over decades now, since we knew that Coda and later MakeMusic weren't going to offer a solution any time soon?
When I point out that the editing of text (to use that example once more) is not the same between 'Edit Text' dialogs, no one can say that it's not a problem on their setup. Finale is programmed with that flaw, so the flaw is present on everyone's setup.
Try this: go to the score manager, select any instrument or group and click the Full Name or Abrr. Name button. Now select the name and press cmd-+. The instrument or group name will increase in point size. Fine, that's what should be happening (as it works in Text Edit also). However, in the Text menu it says that the keyboard shortcut for increasing the point size of the text is shft-cmd-period, but that one doesn't anything in some Edit Text dialogs (the shortcut works, however, e.g. in the Expression Designer).
Then now go back to the score, select the Staff tool, select Staff>Group and Brackets>Edit…. You'll be presented with the same Edit Text dialog, but now try to increase the point size of the group name with the same key combo. All you'll get is a system beep. However, when you'll look under Text>Size, you'll see the menu items Increase and Decrease with some keyboard shortcuts active, only the shortcuts are not working.
The keyboard shortcut shift-cmd-period actually only works in text editing frames and nowhere else, but that aside.
There are many more similar flaws in Finale.

No one can deny that this is as inconsistent as it can possibly get, but since many of us have learned to live with it over the years, decades, it doesn't bother you or at least less than it bothers me. How, though, is a new user to know how to work these dialogs? When will an editing window work as one expects and when should I use other keyboard shortcuts than the application says are to be used?
Unfortunately, I haven't saved MakeMusics answer when I showed them this (and more inconsistencies), but their answer was something along the lines of "they are different text editing windows and that's why they behave differently". Bollocks, the text editing dialogs invoked from the Score Manager and through the Staff menu are the same dialogs, but they behave differently, which is unacceptable. Even if they were different dialogs, shouldn't they behave the same or at least similarly at any rate, or wouldn't it at the very least advisable to have them work similarly? And that's why I report them to MakeMusic to no avail and next report them here with hardly any result other than insults and personal attacks.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 12/29/2016 11:33:48 AM (GMT-6)

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/29/2016 10:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
Absolutely, but it is of no use when all the reports come from one person only. And that's why I hoped to rally some fellow users here to also start reporting these issues to MakeMusic.

You do your fellow forum users here a disservice, if you think that no one but you reports bugs.

If you want Finale to improve then I agree that constructive criticism and helpful reporting are essential. Many of the problems you've fulminated against here are intermittent or not universal, which makes tracking their cause difficult without lots of data. I don't have the "double-clicking" problems that you mention, so I can't report them.

However, none of your posts on the subject of bugs appeared to be exhortations to others to get involved, but just ranting -- and that's probably why everyone finds them tedious.

You might even apply to join the beta-testers, where problems in new versions can hopefully be picked up early enough to be fixed before release, and where suggested improvements can be most readily adopted.

I would suggest that most users here are certainly pragmatic and sanguine, but far from complacent, and most are keen to provide feedback to MM if it helps to improve the product.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 12/29/2016 9:37:06 AM (GMT-6)

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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/29/2016 9:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been reporting things regularly with varying success. MM does try, but the 'scope for future updates' has become a bit of a catch phrase which has lost practical meaning. Now that I've been using Dorico for more than a month, I realise how many actions I perform in Finale are actually workarounds or simple drudgery which should no longer be required. I'm amazed at what this new version 1 program is already able to accomplish and to what extent the emphasis of its makers is placed on getting the program to understand what it is you're trying to do. That's a different and, actually, a more natural and desirable mindset when working in a program than just trying to find a way of getting a program to do something, especially by trickery. I wonder how many of us realise how much time and effort we're actually wasting. It's an arduous task to develop an intelligent program like Dorico but the team working on it takes it most seriously and if anyone is up to the task, they are. Just as important, they take user input very seriously and practically all questions and comments get constructive reactions. I'm afraid this stands in stark contrast to MM's replacing this forum with a seriously inferior one, as well as phasing out telephone support. On the eve of the new year (and the demise of this forum), I really don't believe all this bodes well for MM. I'll keep using Finale as long as possible but I'm convinced that Dorico represents the future.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/29/2016 4:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Absolutely, but it is of no use when all the reports come from one person only. And that's why I hoped to rally some fellow users here to also start reporting these issues to MakeMusic.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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Zuill
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   Posted 12/29/2016 12:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the thing to do is inundate them with reports until they get it. Otherwise, they are rather complacent, it seems.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/28/2016 5:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


I did report a number of these annoyances to MakeMusic without any result. That's why I reported them here and asked all of you why these annoyances remain in Finale.
So, is there not much else to do? Yes, there is. Inspire other users to also report the problem. Only when more people report them, MakeMusic might take action, eventually.

May I ask why it is so much more acceptable to some of you to false delude MakeMusic and pretend that all is peachy than to complain about what is identifiably and demonstrably wrong with the app?


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 12/28/2016 4:30:33 PM (GMT-6)

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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/28/2016 5:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


And really to me that is the biggest issue by far. You send files, you call, you send steps to recreate a bug and nothing happens far too often. It got old long ago.

To tag on to Writer of Music, can someone explain to me why "Staff Lists" are still available for repeats? I remember having a phone meeting with several programmers illustrating my issues with what they termed the new "Expression Paradigm".* At the time, I was told Staff Lists would be disappearing from repeats very soon. It has been how many years now? Does it matter? Not to me, but for a new user having multiple ways to assign certain items can be seriously confusing.

*My favorite answer to one of my questions was "We were not aware people use the program this way."

Being tone deaf to your base is nothing new and really it won't change until the base expects much more from MakeMusic. Why would MakeMusic change if we keep forking out money for them?

But again, I am not unhappy with Finale but KNOW it can be so much better. So much better!!

I do very much worry that when this forum is locked the little feedback MakeMusic actually cared to read and address will be gone entirely.

Enough from me. I have a job and no more time...


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/28/2016 2:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>My annoyance was and is aimed at the app and the developers of the app

I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/28/2016 2:19:33 PM (GMT-6)

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/28/2016 2:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Must I remind you that you were the one who told me to "get a job"?
Have you read the other thread (about slurs)?
I ask questions, serious questions about issues with Finale. Perhaps not HUMONGOUS, fatal issues, but issues nonetheless. And they may not bug you as much as they bug me, but is that good enough a reason to encounter me with the hostility that some of you find necessary to deploy? Do I not have a right to point out flaws in the app as anyone else? Am I not allowed to be critical when I pay good money for an application that has its shortcomings? Many of you may not like the wordings I choose (English is not my first language, not even second or third), but is that a justification for the childish behaviour of some of you?

It is not normal for a Mac application to not be able to e.g. edit text in every text editing dialog in the same way. An application, supposedly written for the Mac OS, should behave as a Mac application, simple as that, and Finale doesn't in quite a number of respects. And yes, I do get a bit irritable when I pay good money for a Mac application and get —for the umptiest time— the advise to use the app under Windows.

My annoyance was and is aimed at the app and the developers of the app, who have ignored to correct what was wrong for years on end already. My annoyance was never aimed at any of you personally, whereas some of you have been very hostile to me as a person, time and again. I care very little about that, by all means: put me on the ignore list if you're that pettish, but I do feel sorry for those who thought it necessary to publicly illustrate their personality by falling back on insults, name calling and other childish behaviour. I would advise them to delete their pitiful messages before they will be inedibly on display for all times.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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jim dukey
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   Posted 12/28/2016 12:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No one is stifling you,
but you come across as an annoying complainer.
Has that helped improve Finale?
Evidently not.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/27/2016 7:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I use Finale since version 3.

I do have a job, thank you.

I have seen the annoyances grow and increase in number since the early 1990's (version 3, as said).

25.2 'works' for me as well (apart from the known bugs and a handful new ones), that's why I call the issues with the app 'annoyances' and not 'problems'.

All of you encounter the same annoyances (or at least most of them), but they bother you less. I wonder why? Why are you willing to stick up with inconsistencies and incongruences within an application that could be, should be fixed? They probably bother you not so much because you're used to them, you learned to work with the app in spite of the annoyances and you're not willing to ask for value for your money from a commercial company. Also, you don't give a crap about people who'll have to learn to work with the app from scratch and bump into these annoyances. Result: the app has a learning curve far higher than would be necessary had it been written properly and had the long time users been assertive enough to demand decent software from the successive developers.

"Pretty well", dear sirs, simply isn't good enough. You all have paid good money for this app, many of you (including me) have paid quite a few thousand for an application that falls short if you're willing to look at it with an unbiased eye. It is said bias that prohibits you from being as critical as you are entitled to be. Your choice, not mine. I respect yours, many of you obviously don't respect mine. Who now has reason to be disgruntled? Then why are you?

But do remember that being satisfied with the app 'as it is' is not helping the app forward. Eventually the app will become unworkable for all the inconsistencies and incongruences imbedded, for all workarounds and surrogate solutions needed and come to a grinding halt. Indeed, as BvdPress says, Finale works 'just fine', but it could be much better. To get it 'much better' we will have to tell MakeMusic to make it better, not to stifle everyone who dares to utter a critical note. And that's what I do and have done for many years. What will you do?


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/27/2016 3:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...


By the way, they cannot work fine for you. Some annoyances may not occur as frequent or at all in your set up, but others are written into the application, so they cannot but occur in your setup as well (albeit that they may annoy you less than they do annoy me).
For instance: can you edit text the same way in all dialogs? No, you can't. You'll have to realise first in which dialog you are to know how you can edit text. The active or inactive state of menu items is no help, because several menu items cannot be used even though they show up as active. Some key combo's as short cuts for menu commands cannot be used, even though they show up in the menu and the menu item is active and can be used.
The list goes on and grows with every new release.


Then why upgrade? We upgrade, MM doesn't see a problem and the annoyances continue.

The annoyances you have listed don't bother me, but that is probably because I have used the program for over 20 years. If these issues were fixed, it might actually annoy me more :)

The double clicking to get something to work or stop (like playback) is annoying, but I get over it because of the output I can produce. The problem for MM is that all these little annoyances do add up and if anything comes along that is better then I think many of us will leave Finale in favor of a better product. Right now that product does not exist so I ignore the annoyances and get my work done so I can eat dinner.

25.1 (have not bumped to .2 yet) works for me just fine, but it could be much better. Finale can always be better, but the company has to make the choice to make it better. I really hope Dorico gives MM a massive kick in the ass, but a truly usable Dorico could be years down the road.


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/27/2016 3:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
[quote]Finale could very well do with an overhaul from the ground up, or rather: a complete rewrite.

I have some bad news. Finale 25 is the 64 bit rewrite that we've been promised since 2012 and didn't get in 2013. Does it have growing pains? Yes but, overall, it works pretty well for me. Even the things that you say don't. Get over it.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/27/2016 1:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Complaining to a bunch of users is certainly not a very good use of your time.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/27/2016 1:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seriously, if Finale causes you all the annoyance, grief, frustration and anger that is evident in your posts, then you need to try something else. MuseScore and Denemo (a GUI for Lilypond) are free, but very capable. Sibelius is the current professional alternative, and Dorico, though still in its infancy, is well supported and has frequent updates scheduled. Overture 5 is by the team that made Encore, and is a new version this year.

You can get crossgrades, so your investment in Finale still has some value.

Software is just a tool to get the job done: if it doesn't work for you, get another one. Ironically, MakeMusic have nurtured MusicXML, which means you can transfer your files to other products.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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jim dukey
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   Posted 12/27/2016 12:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Get a job.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/27/2016 12:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...
Writer of Music said...
So, why are those annoyances still not fixed?

They work fine for me. Have you called support?


From all the times I have contacted support since early 1990's, not one (!) issue was solved. The standard answer is that they are thankful I brought the problem to their attention, that it was forwarded to the tech guys and might get fixed in some future version. Multiple future versions later none of them is fixed and more annoyances have been added.

Finale could very well do with an overhaul from the ground up, or rather: a complete rewrite. There are so many inconsistencies within the app, so many incongruences with Apple guidelines for applications for the Mac OS, so many things that need to be restructured, etcetera, etcetera.

By the way, they cannot work fine for you. Some annoyances may not occur as frequent or at all in your set up, but others are written into the application, so they cannot but occur in your setup as well (albeit that they may annoy you less than they do annoy me).
For instance: can you edit text the same way in all dialogs? No, you can't. You'll have to realise first in which dialog you are to know how you can edit text. The active or inactive state of menu items is no help, because several menu items cannot be used even though they show up as active. Some key combo's as short cuts for menu commands cannot be used, even though they show up in the menu and the menu item is active and can be used.
The list goes on and grows with every new release.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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MikeHalloran
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 217
 
   Posted 12/26/2016 9:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
So, why are those annoyances still not fixed?

They work fine for me. Have you called support?


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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MikeHalloran
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to MikeHalloranAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 217
 
   Posted 12/26/2016 9:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zoots said...
Yes, 64-bit Windows will run 32-bit applications just fine. You must have the right "bit versions" of device drivers though. If your device doesn't have a 64-bit driver than you are out of luck making the device available on your system.


Exactly. Simple as can be. Oh, wait a minute, we're discussing Windows...
www.howtogeek.com/228689/how-to-make-old-programs-work-on-windows-10/

Anyway, you might be able to get Finale 2005 to run in Win64 but it won't be as simple as double-clicking on it. This is true of all versions older than 2010 as I recall.

And why is Windows being constantly brought up in the Mac forum anyway???


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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BvdPress
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Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 1006
 
   Posted 12/26/2016 9:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
So, why are those annoyances still not fixed?


Isn't the real answer they are not fixed because us users keep buying the product therefore MM has no incentive to fix any issues whatsoever?


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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