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TechSupport
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   Posted 12/11/2003 4:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Finale 2004, now scheduled to ship in the month of January 2004 will be native to OS X.
http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/mac-commitment.asp


Brian


Coda Tech

Note: These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly via email at [email protected] or [email protected] or call 952-937-9703.

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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 12/11/2003 4:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I hope that my fellow mac users will continue patience for this fine product and I hope that the considerable time that Makemusic has put into the OS X version will reflect their effort with a very speedy and versitile product. If it is, perhaps I'll get a mac sometime.

David


David Young
 
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.

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kaumann
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   Posted 12/11/2003 4:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lol skull shocked smilewinkgrin smurf ;-) :p blush idea freaked cool devil redface rolleyes :-) ;-) smurf ;-) smilewinkgrin smilewinkgrin tongue :-) sad sad mad freaked rolleyes smile freaked freaked mad mad eyes eyes cool :-) skull scool scool devil devil :p sad sad eyes eyes devil freaked idea rolleyes skull :-) sad scool redface shocked freaked freaked lol skull shocked smilewinkgrin smurf ;-) :p blush idea freaked cool devil redface rolleyes :-) ;-) smurf ;-) smilewinkgrin smilewinkgrin tongue :-) sad sad mad freaked rolleyes smile freaked freaked mad mad eyes eyes cool :-) skull scool scool devil devil :p sad sad eyes eyes devil freaked idea rolleyes skull :-) sad scool redface shocked freaked freaked lol skull shocked smilewinkgrin smurf ;-) :p blush idea freaked cool devil redface rolleyes :-) ;-) smurf ;-) smilewinkgrin smilewinkgrin tongue :-) sad sad mad freaked rolleyes smile freaked freaked mad mad eyes eyes cool :-) skull scool scool devil devil :p sad sad eyes eyes devil freaked idea rolleyes skull :-) sad scool redface shocked freaked freaked

Post Edited (kaumann) : 12/11/2003 8:28:29 PM GMT

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Richard Rasch
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   Posted 12/11/2003 4:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MakeMusic's update notice said...


This year, with Finale 2004, we broke our own rule and tradition of not announcing release dates.


Didn't MakeMusic also brake this rule in 2003 when they announced the 2003 update and added that the 2004 update would be released in the summer of 2003. Don't you just love corporate PR spin?

-Richard
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Spankypdx
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   Posted 12/11/2003 4:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I too am anxiously awaiting Finale 2004. I for one wish they'd let us work with what they've got so far. I don't need Panther support, I don't need backward-compatibility with 9.x; I especially don't need all of the "human" features they're touting as the things we'll find worth waiting for. I just need a basic, no-frills Finale version that will run natively in OS X Jaguar, and that will do things like Speedy Entry and Internal Speaker Playback. That's all. Maybe they could do what Microsoft does, and release their bug-laden beta and call it version 1.0, then "fix" it later on with service releases. No, never mind, I hate when Microsoft does that. I guess I'll wait like everyone else. Arrgh.

At least I finally figured out a way to get 2k3 to print to my network printer directly from Classic mode, so now I don't have to jump through a horrendous amount of hoops to print it: export each page to a TIFF file, use GraphicConverter to save the collection of TIFFs as one big pdf file, copy it across the network to the PC with the faster print drivers, and print it from Acrobat Reader. The printing process used to take a good solid hour, now that's down to about half that. Still, it will be nice to have an OSX-native Finale. Wonder what's taking them so long?

This rambling rant has been brought to you by...

Pete
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kaumann
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   Posted 12/11/2003 4:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, this is a sad day again for mac users. "Tremendous progress", "January, cant say for certain of course", "our renewed commitment" are the new key words for Mac users.

This means probably not earlier than January 32... Actually they said "not earlier than Dec. 15" but they never mentioned a year.
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ottowest
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   Posted 12/11/2003 4:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
freaked Noooooooooooo! The last time I was "treated" like this by someone, at least I got dinner and a movie out of it. devil


How about a 25% discount on the upgrade for all of the undue emotional stress this has caused? lol


I have the strangest feeling that I am a doormat.


How can Finale be the last program on the face of the Earth to be properly ported to OSX? They've had years!



(Falls while getting off soapbox) :p


"Macintosh - We might not get everything right, but at least we knew the century was going to end."

"The Macintosh may only have 10% of the market, but it is clearly the top 10%."

-Douglas Adams-

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serialisme
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   Posted 12/11/2003 5:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
.
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Jetcopy
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   Posted 12/11/2003 7:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
With today’s OSX update announcement I have serious doubts about the long term stability of Make Music and Finale.  Make Music knows very well that they’ve angered their Mac user base.  While the Mac portion of their profits is much smaller than their Windows side, I believe them when say that they are still comitted to the Mac platform.  They need our Mac dollars.  Therefore, I can only conclude that they don’t have the financial resources to hire sufficient programmers to keep their product competitive.  If they can’t do this now, what the long term viability of this company?   Mac Finale is already behind current technology,  how far behind will it be in a few years?  If it’s around at all.  This will affect the Finale Windows users too, even if they don’t realize it now.
I’ve been a user since version 2.0 in 1992 and use Finale to earn my living.   I still have my copy of Finale 2004 OSX on order.  But this is the first time I find myself not being excited about the new version.  I feel completely let down by Make Music.
I purchased Sibelius 2 last year with their competitive upgrade.  I’ve used it a little, I don’t like it as much as Finale.  But today I just ordered Sibelius 3.  I’m going to spend my free time between Christmas and New Year’s Eve learning Sibelius 3 in more depth.  I feel I need to do this in order to stay competitive in my field.  
Jeff Turner
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Buzzandluna
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   Posted 12/12/2003 2:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting that Brian (techpc) was the MakeMusic person who started the thread on the MAC forum.

renewed committment?


greetings

Leonard Cecil
Music of Note - Music Notation Workshop
www.music-of-note.ch
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kaumann
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   Posted 12/12/2003 5:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Including panther compatibility"!!!
This is an extra bonus for us, Mac users.
Wouldn't have expected that MakeMusic goes that far, was prepared to reinstall 10.1.5 again :)

Anyway, dear MakeMusic, I think that corporate apologies and other verbal stuff wont work.
All we need is OS X native Finale. For a few years already.

I am having the same feelings as Jetcopy. After finisfing a full-scale opera composition in December, I am thinking of trying Sibelius 3 for my next project which is a chamber work. All other computers in my network run on Panther, it is a pain having one computer in native 9 (for Finale and SW sampler wont work together in Classic). Printer sharing doesnt work with OS X as well as many other features I need on daily basis. Sadly, I have to submit one of my few Finale licences to Sibelius and get a competitive upgrade...

Post Edited (kaumann) : 12/12/2003 9:22:26 AM GMT

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smack
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   Posted 12/12/2003 8:50 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
> How about a 25% discount on the upgrade for all of the undue emotional stress this has caused?

I would atleast hope for a discount on 2005, assuming it comes out next summer. If we're lucky, we'll have been using 2004 for a few months by then.

Say, does anyone know of any third-party documentation for Sibelius 3? I've been toying with the demo, but I can't really find any detailed instructions on how to use it, and I'm not so hot on the idea of plunking down $200 for the full version just so I can get the user manual and see if I'll be comfortable with the program.
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msirt
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   Posted 12/12/2003 9:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MakeMusic CEO wrote:

"We cannot say for certain, of course, because each Finale upgrade is an exercise not just in development, but in invention."

Including, in this case, the invention of 'spin'. smilewinkgrin

MS
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ludwigtheman
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   Posted 12/12/2003 11:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
[quote]MakeMusic CEO wrote:

"We cannot say for certain, of course, because each Finale upgrade is an exercise not just in development, but in invention."



BTW, what exactly is that supposed to mean?
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B K
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   Posted 12/12/2003 11:33 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
They don't look like a serious company any more. Can you imagine users begging any other software company make their app compatible with the users' platform? There are a few competing apps in every field, and - as a rule - none is ever so much better to justify users endlessly sticking with it no matter what.]

I could go on, but it is a waste of time. It is only my own laziness/memories of trouble learning how to work with that Bugdom, that prevented me from switching (how good does Sibelius convert Finale documents-perfectly, acceptable, or editing necessary?).

What makes me giggle however are their excuses. First they call Windows users Mac users' beta testers. Then they promise progress reports, and email one after a month stating actually that still everything is possible, but they'd like to get our upgrade money. Then they demonstrate how they already made OSX Finale Expose compatible - well, please inform me of a pre-Panther OSX app which is not. Then they claim to be partly late for making Finale Panther compatible - maybe some others will see, but I don't, anything Panther brought that would be decisive for Finale....
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dtoub
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   Posted 12/12/2003 1:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Personally, I'm really pissed! And this is after I had previously posted something on this forum that indicated understanding for MakeMusic's situation. It's one thing to delay the software release once (and give the company wiggle room by saying it wouldn't be released "before December 15th"). It's something altogether different to have another delay. I think we all understand that it's better to have a solid release rather than be a bunch of beta testers. But this has crossed the line. I agree with the finale user who stated that MakeMusic does want to keep their Mac OS base, but just may not have the resources to do it. As much as we're all pretty angry right now, what happens down the road if there is no finale whatsoever? So yes, I'm ticked off, but deep down am at least glad that theoretically, something will come out for OS X in 2004....I hope.... sad
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dtoub
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   Posted 12/12/2003 1:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh, and I ranted about it on my blog (http://homepage.mac.com/dtoub/blog/index.html)
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jscagnetti
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   Posted 12/12/2003 8:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Say, does anyone know of any third-party documentation for Sibelius 3? I've been toying with the demo, but I can't really find any detailed instructions on how to use it, and I'm not so hot on the idea of plunking down $200 for the full version just so I can get the user manual and see if I'll be comfortable with the program.
I don't know of any third-party documentation - I got Sib 3 recently and I'd lend you the manual myself but I'm still using it! (Actually I haven't needed the manual much so far, but it's a good read so it's my bedside reading at the moment.)
 
Maybe if you contact Sibelius they'll let you have one. Or maybe they let you return Sib if you don't like it. Worth checking Sib out though - if you're like me I don't think you'll be disappointed with it.
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Pete Sawchuk
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   Posted 12/13/2003 5:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
smack said...
Say, does anyone know of any third-party documentation for Sibelius 3? I've been toying with the demo, but I can't really find any detailed instructions on how to use it, and I'm not so hot on the idea of plunking down $200 for the full version just so I can get the user manual and see if I'll be comfortable with the program.


Try the Sib 3 demo's help file. Naturally, it's not as extensive as the manual but it does provide quite a bit of information.


Pete Sawchuk
PowerMac G4 Dual 867Mhz w/ 23" Apple Cinema Display
Finale 2003a in Mac OS 9.2.2
Otherwise, Mac OSX 10.3.1

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kaumann
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   Posted 12/13/2003 6:47 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One more thought:
The concept "RENEWED COMMITMENT" seems scary to me.

The fact that MakeMusic stated that commitment to Macintosh platform is renewed, indicates that something happened to commitment to Mac platform. Did they drop it in past years? Will this renewed commitment be dropped again in a few years maybe?

Anyway, even IF Fin2004 Mac comes out in January (cant say for certain, of course lol) then the fact that the commitment and support for Mac platform has been dropped once makes one to suspect that this could possibly happen again.

Until F2004 Mac is out, it would be honest to tell on MakeMusic website that Finale family products are for Windows. Period. Thats how it is. Macintosh platform was no longer supported since 2002 when Finale 2003 came out for OS 9 only, which was officially declared "dead" by Apple a few months later.

Post Edited (kaumann) : 12/13/2003 10:49:14 AM GMT

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Zuill
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   Posted 12/13/2003 1:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If I were a Mac user and had pressing work, I would probably have gone to Sibelius by now. When I first got Finale, I was in a spot to have a 7 movement orchestral score out in less than three weeks that I had forgotten about. I was about to do it by hand. I was introduced to Finale by a friend, and although I had never used it before, was able to get the score out on time. I thinks Sibelius is probably easier to learn and a bargain at any price (if it means finishing a paying project or not). You can still get the 2004 upgrade if and when it is finished, but meanwhile, you're expanding you're skills and versatility. In your shoes, I would definitely consider that option.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

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habibbijan
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   Posted 12/13/2003 1:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Luckily, I own both an old PC and a new Mac. I'm anxious to make the Mac my main workstation, and like everyone else, I feel let down by this latest delay. Until 2004 ships for OSX, I must continue using 2003a on the PC.

Many times I've found myself browsing the Sibelius web site, preparing to click the "Order Now" button. Before I do, something stops me. I guess it's my frail hope that Finale 2004 will be a tremendous improvement when it finally arrives. I guess it's also the years of my life that I've invested into learning the ins-and-outs of Finale. Call it what you will, but I'm willing to wait a little longer to see if they come through.

If I didn't already own a PC though, it might be totally different.

Tick, tock, tick, tock....


Brian Bondari
www.habibbijan.com
"Writing music with theory in mind is like wearing underwear that's too tight. It's restricting!"

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Tyler
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   Posted 12/13/2003 2:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"The concept "RENEWED COMMITMENT" seems scary to me."
 
You're reading too much into it. It's a marketing way of saying we haven't left you. Obviously with the Mac platform, nothing terribly huge had to be done for the years leading up to OS X (at least compared to OS X). So in a sense, the arrival of OS X meant we had to dedicate a lot more special resources to it that otherwise could have been devoted to Finale development for both Windows and Macintosh.
 
It's tough to give you all an idea how big this project was. To give you some idea, we had a very rough version of Finale working in pre-versions of OS X back in the early part of 2001. Finale 2002 came out that summer right on the heels of the OS X release. At that time we made plans to develop Finale 2003 for OS X. As time passed we realized it couldn't be done. Now that it comes to 2004, it's been 3 years of development time for this single feature. There's nothing else to compare with that in our company's history.
 
"Until F2004 Mac is out, it would be honest to tell on MakeMusic website that Finale family products are for Windows. Period. Thats how it is. Macintosh platform was no longer supported since 2002 when Finale 2003 came out for OS 9 only, which was officially declared "dead" by Apple a few months later.<!-- Edit -->"
 
I have to disagree. We've been honest. Finale does work in Classic mode of OS X (even with MIDI if you use an interface that works in classic mode). And OS 9 is still a very legitimate OS that is used by a lot of our Macintosh market. Keep in mind that schools make up a giant portion of the Macintosh market for notation software, and many of them have not or took a long time in moving to OS X. We haven't mistated the facts here. The truth is that many people used Finale 2003 in OS 9 and Classic. I don't see a convincing argument for stating that we don't support Macintosh at all.
 
"It's one thing to delay the software release once (and give the company wiggle room by saying it wouldn't be released "before December 15th"). It's something altogether different to have another delay. "
 
How so? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand this. When we released that "no earlier than Dec 15th" date, our best guess about the timing was late december. Our latest information served as an update to that, not as a contradiction. We thought people should know our projection.
 
"I agree with the finale user who stated that MakeMusic does want to keep their Mac OS base, but just may not have the resources to do it. "
 
Apple made a staggering change in their OS. It took us a long, long time to answer it. Now that's almost taken care of. I don't foresee a change in the Apple OS this dramatic for a long time to come. So I don't agree with that assessment. Based on how well our notation products (especially Finale 2004) are doing and how well SmartMusic is taking off, I don't share your fear here.
 
"What makes me giggle however are their excuses. First they call Windows users Mac users' beta testers. "
 
Hmmm.... that doesn't sound like something we believe or like something we'd say. Where do you see this?
 
 
 
 
 
 
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ottowest
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   Posted 12/13/2003 2:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I went ahead and downloaded the Sibelius demo and checked it out. I wasn't all that impressed. I'm sure a lot of my discomfort was based on looks alone, but it doesn't look right to me at all. I played a few of the demo scores and was not all that impressed. The sounds are more pleasing to the ear then the quick time sounds on OS9, but they wern't that great. I would consider learning Sibelius simply to add to my library of skils, but unless the mysterious phantom OSX upgrade to Finale is a complete step backwards, I will stick with it as my main notation program. Just like Brian, and I'm sure many other Finale users, I have dedicated years of my life to using the program and I am not that willing to just give it up. Of course I'm pissed at MakeMusic for this completely unnecessary delay and have serious doubts about their future commitment to the Mac. As long as there is at least one decent stable release is made for OSX, I can keep using Finale until the day my G5 finally goes belly up.


"Macintosh - We might not get everything right, but at least we knew the century was going to end."

"The Macintosh may only have 10% of the market, but it is clearly the top 10%."

-Douglas Adams-

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B K
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   Posted 12/13/2003 2:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tyler of MakeMusic said...
"

"What makes me giggle however are their excuses. First they call Windows users Mac users' beta testers. "



Hmmm.... that doesn't sound like something we believe or like something we'd say. Where do you see this?



Hello Tyler,


It was in the first progress report of I think 11/11, which now has been taken down from the site, as the brand new progress report was published in that space.

I remember you from the support: your answers were always quick, witty and precise.

I hope you are right stating Finale is doing fine, but it's probably not easy now to persuade people believe so.

Cheers,


BK
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