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srosenberg
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   Posted 12/2/2011 10:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is there any way to get Finale to automatically substitute printer's (curly) quotes (smart quotes in WORD) for regular ones when entering quotation marks in the lyric editor or text boxes?
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Zuill
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   Posted 12/3/2011 2:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
With Windows, you use alt-0147 and alt-0148. So, it is not direct, but doable. Does Mac not have a shortcut to those symbols, or a way of programming shortcuts to them?

Zuill


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Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
 
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/3/2011 4:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
With Windows, you use alt-0147 and alt-0148. So, it is not direct, but doable. Does Mac not have a shortcut to those symbols, or a way of programming shortcuts to them?

Yes, we have keyboard shortcuts for all the characters! And without using number codes either.
Double quotes are <alt> [ and <shift><alt> [
Single quotes are <alt> ] and <shift> <alt> ]

(<alt> does left quotes, <shift><alt> does right quotes.)

But yes, it is slightly irksome that Finale does not do Smart Quotes. Another option is copy and paste the text into a text editor, like TextWrangler, which can "Educate" quotes. Then copy and paste the text back.

TextWrangler is a free text editor for Macs, which I think is one of the most essential third-party apps. You can get it either from its own website, or from the Mac App Store.


Finale 2012, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.7.2
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 12/3/2011 4:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There's a Finalescript example in the documentation that replaces straight to curly quotes. Haven't tested it myself, though.


Jari Williamsson

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2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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tbmartin
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   Posted 12/3/2011 8:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
With Windows, you use alt-0147 and alt-0148. So, it is not direct, but doable. Does Mac not have a shortcut to those symbols, or a way of programming shortcuts to them?

Zuill

Always having to use straight quotes was annoying, but never annoying enough to try to find a solution. Thanks!


Terence
Saxophone Quartet Arranger
Using Finale 2003a, Windows XP Pro and Vista

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Philip.
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   Posted 12/3/2011 8:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This issue is a descendant of the early days of typewriters! I am so used to the shortcuts Wiggy mentioned, that I forget that I don't need them when using Word.

Anyway, Sibelius has a plug-in for this. I wonder if one could be possible for Finale. In the meantime Finalescript would be the way to go to do this en masse.


Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.0.3
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/3/2011 9:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Philip. said...
In the meantime Finalescript would be the way to go to do this en masse.

Jari Williamsson said...
There's a Finalescript example in the documentation that replaces straight to curly quotes. Haven't tested it myself, though.

Jari, can you point out where this is? I can't see it in the Finalescript Help page. There is a script to "Stupefy" smart quotes into dumb quotes in the Finalescript palette, but that's obviously less useful.

Educating quotes is a bit more complex than a simply search and replace, as you have to search for quotes that follow a space and replace them with left quotes, and search for quotes preceding a space (or punctuation) and replace with right quotes, and also take into account apostrophes in things like 'can't'. And other exceptions!


Finale 2012, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.7.2
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 12/3/2011 11:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It would be cool if the pop-up for diacritical mark options (which does not yet work in Finale) included quotes and apostrophes.

I agree with Wiggy that the easiest solution is to move text to TextWrangler, smarten the quotes, and move it back.

Bill


Finale 2012 (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil with eraser
OS 10.7 Lion

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/3/2011 1:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QuarkXpress has smart quotes as a program option. To get straight quotes with the option on, I believe you just select the quote and type over it.

Isn't it time that Finale had a similar option? This is just another one of those little things that make Finale's out-of-the box output look sub-par.

N.


Finale 2010b, 2011c, testing 2012
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.8
New Belgium 'Trippel' Ale

"Anyone who tells a lie has not a pure heart, and cannot make a good soup."

– Ludwig van Beethoven

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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 12/3/2011 1:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can you do it in Text Find and Replace?

Edit: Never mind. That won't work, because it doesn't differentiate between opening and closing quotes. Sorry...

(I'll leave it here, so someone will benefit from my failure, and not try it!)



Mike Rosen
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Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Still happily on Windows XP, SP3

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Post Edited (Mike Rosen) : 12/3/2011 12:49:30 PM (GMT-6)

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/3/2011 1:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
Can you do it in Text Find and Replace?

As I noted above: not easily, because you want to replace half the instances of one character with one thing and the other half with another thing.


Finale 2012, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.7.2
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/3/2011 1:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
Can you do it in Text Find and Replace?

Edit: Never mind. That won't work, because it doesn't differentiate between opening and closing quotes. Sorry...

(I'll leave it here, so someone will benefit from my failure, and not try it!)


If you're talking about lyrics, Text Find is useful for fixing apostrophes - I use it all the time.

N.


Finale 2010b, 2011c, testing 2012
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.8
New Belgium 'Trippel' Ale

"Anyone who tells a lie has not a pure heart, and cannot make a good soup."

– Ludwig van Beethoven

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frannbug
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   Posted 12/3/2011 5:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It really is worth learning to type them. How can you get the machine to do the quote the right way round when you type ’cello? Believe me, just type a few pages of conversation about a book title, including words like ‘’cello’ and ‘’phone’ and it soon becomes second nature. Best learn to do it while you are young, like I did. I’d never be able to learn it now I’m getting on a bit!


MacBook Pro 2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo/3GB RAM/750GB HD/running X10.7.2
Finale 3.7/2006d/2007c/2011c

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/3/2011 7:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
frannbug said...
It really is worth learning to type them. How can you get the machine to do the quote the right way round when you type ’cello? Believe me, just type a few pages of conversation about a book title, including words like ‘’cello’ and ‘’phone’ and it soon becomes second nature. Best learn to do it while you are young, like I did. I’d never be able to learn it now I’m getting on a bit!


You make a good point - everybody should be able to find out from whence they came and learn the 4 keystrokes. On the other hand, advanced typesetting programs have had smart quotes for years, if not decades. I think it’s high time Finale caught up so that default output is correct with no fuss.

By the way, smart quotes automatically appear in the proper orientation if they lead a word ('cello) or appear at the end or within a word ("cello's string").

N.


Finale 2010b, 2011c, testing 2012
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.8
New Belgium 'Trippel' Ale

"Anyone who tells a lie has not a pure heart, and cannot make a good soup."

– Ludwig van Beethoven

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srosenberg
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   Posted 12/3/2011 11:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The comments about using Finale script gave me the idea to tinker with the smart to regular quotes script.
Try this out for replacing regular quotes with smart quotes.
open a new Finale script dialog box and paste the following: (This seems to correctly replace a large percentage of the regular quotes in the small samples I've tried.) Then run the script on your lyrics with regular quotes or apostrophes.

//Mac version
search "<34><32>" replace with "<211><32>"
search "<32><34>" replace with "<32><210>"
search "<39>" replace with "<213>"
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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 12/4/2011 11:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Two years ago, I created a very simple Windows plug-in for curly quotations replacement. I have intended to do a "real" plug-in of this for some time, to provide much more control over the appearance of the curly quotes, but I use lyrics so seldom myself so it's not been realized yet.

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=11&m=277319


Jari Williamsson

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2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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Motet
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   Posted 12/4/2011 1:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Instead of memorizing cumbersome character codes, the software could, as you're typing, replace the first double quote with an open curly quote and the next one with a close curly quote. Rather than wait years for MM to implement this, can't one copy and paste from a program like Word that already does that?


Finale 2011b, 2005b, TGTools
Finale 2012 demo
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/4/2011 2:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Instead of memorizing cumbersome character codes, the software could, as you're typing, replace the first double quote with an open curly quote and the next one with a close curly quote. Rather than wait years for MM to implement this, can't one copy and paste from a program like Word that already does that?

Yes, you can. Which was why I mentioned it earlier. :p


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Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
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srosenberg
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   Posted 12/4/2011 10:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One can readily enter text in WORD to get smart quotes from the outset and copy that to the lyrics or text box editor, but some, like me, are addicted to typing lyrics into score directly.
If one creates and uses the plug-in suggested above, one need not know any character unicodes, the plug in takes care of that for you.
It's not perfect, as it won't properly convert the quotes if they're not preceded or followed by a space, but usually they are.

Footnote: Why, after all these years (using Finale since 1991) doesn't the program recognize the forward delete key "DEL" ???
I'm quite mystified how elementary stuff like this gets overlooked while the program is revised every year.
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/5/2011 3:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
srosenberg said...
One can readily enter text in WORD to get smart quotes from the outset and copy that to the lyrics or text box editor, but some, like me, are addicted to typing lyrics into score directly.

You can copy and paste the lyrics from the Lyrics Window to TextWrangler or other program, Educate the Quotes, and then copy and paste it back to the Lyrics Window. (Third time of mentioning!)

srosenberg said...
Footnote: Why, after all these years (using Finale since 1991) doesn't the program recognize the forward delete key "DEL" ???
I'm quite mystified how elementary stuff like this gets overlooked while the program is revised every year.

Please describe how the forward delete key doesn't work for you. It works fine for me in Lyrics and Text.


Finale 2012, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.7.2
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/5/2011 7:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...
srosenberg said...
One can readily enter text in WORD to get smart quotes from the outset and copy that to the lyrics or text box editor, but some, like me, are addicted to typing lyrics into score directly.

You can copy and paste the lyrics from the Lyrics Window to TextWrangler or other program, Educate the Quotes, and then copy and paste it back to the Lyrics Window. (Third time of mentioning!)


Just to clarify (for the first time) -

>Type lyrics into score as usual
>Go to Finale's Edit Lyrics window, select all and copy
>Paste into Word to fix quotes
>Copy all from Word, and paste over lyrics in Finale's Edit Lyrics

The lyric assignments won't change as long as no extra spaces or lyrics were added - only the quotes are replaced.


N.


Finale 2010b, 2011c, testing 2012
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.8
New Belgium 'Trippel' Ale

"Anyone who tells a lie has not a pure heart, and cannot make a good soup."

– Ludwig van Beethoven

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 12/5/2011 8:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
N.

I don't have Word so I don't know what it takes to convert the quotes there. In Text Wrangler you just select "Educate Quotes" I don't know if that's fewer steps, or the same as in Word.

Bill


Finale 2012 (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil with eraser
OS 10.7 Lion

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/5/2011 10:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Word, being a wordy processor, rather than a text editor, often has a tendency to add spaces (or change normal spaces to other forms of white space), and is therefore best avoided for purely textual operations. It also seems a bit of an unwieldy beast to fire up just for a small task like this.

In fact, it should be possible to create an Automator Service that educates quotes in the selected text, which you could apply directly to selected text in Finale from the Services menu.


Finale 2012, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.7.2
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 12/5/2011 11:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>> it should be possible to create an Automator Service that educates quotes

I spent some time yesterday trying to do that without any luck, but I really don't know much about Automator so maybe someone else can come up with a solution.

Bill


Finale 2012 (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil with eraser
OS 10.7 Lion

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/5/2011 3:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Stevens said...
I spent some time yesterday trying to do that without any luck, but I really don't know much about Automator so maybe someone else can come up with a solution.

I may try to come up with something when I have a moment. Put it in my In tray. It's here somewhere.


Finale 2012, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.7.2
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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