The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=391894
Posted By : k_ben - 2/24/2013 4:28 AM
Hello,
I'll be grateful if someone could explain mme how to make those complicated tuplets (at 4/4), each has a value of 1 quarter note (please see pic, sorry for my painting abilities...).
I use Fnale 2012c.r13 under Win7.
Greets,
Benny

Posted By : OCTO. - 2/24/2013 4:45 AM
Use Tuplet tool. Please check the manual.


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Posted By : Vaughan - 2/24/2013 5:02 AM
Not complicated! How to enter these is a bit dependent on your method of entering notes. I'm a Speedy Entry user, so I'd start the second tuplet by entering the first note as a sixteenth sextuplet, changing it to an eighth and then entering the rest of the notes, changing the beaming as necessary. The first example is a 'nested tuplet' and very easy to enter as it doesn't matter which you create first. It's all described in the manual.


Vaughan

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Posted By : k_ben - 2/24/2013 12:31 PM
Thanks a lot Vaughan.

Posted By : k_ben - 2/25/2013 1:07 AM
Hi ,
as you see, I followed the manual and succeeded in entering the tuplets, but problem is as follows:
I'd like to have these tuplets as only one quarter (see picture), but get them only as a half, is there a way to change it?
BTW- I also use the "Speedy Entry" method
Greets,
Benny

Posted By : k_ben - 2/25/2013 1:11 AM
Sorry, Here is the attachment:

Posted By : Zuill - 2/25/2013 2:25 AM
That is not a nested tuplet. Somehow, you got part way there, but not all the way.

Zuill

P.S.: This quick demo shows what you wanted from your first post. The 16th tuplets have the 3 hidden, as your demo did, but I think they should show, personally.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Post Edited (Zuill) : 2/25/2013 1:09:11 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Motet - 2/25/2013 12:49 PM
How does one do that in Speedy, Zuill? I guess I've never had occasion to enter one where the first note is nested. (If the nesting comes later, I know how to do that.)


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Posted By : Vaughan - 2/25/2013 1:39 PM
One way: create an eighth triplet then place the caret on the first eighth, press opt-3, and then the number 3. This changes the first note into a 16th triplet which is nested in the triplet of three eighths. Then, using shift, insert the following two notes of the first nested triplet. Repeat the process for the last nested triplet (except that you don't need to insert the notes using shift unless you've already entered notes following the nested triplets).


Vaughan

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Posted By : Motet - 2/25/2013 2:18 PM
Is that Speedy or Simple?


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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 2/25/2013 3:11 PM
In fairness to the OP, these are not trivial tuplets to make, in my opinion.  Granted, I'm no expert, but I struggled with the first one for quite a while until I came upon the correct solution.
 
Motet,
I was able to make the first one four ways, two with Simple and two with Speedy.  The two ways were:
 
1) form outside tuplet 1st (qty 1), then inside tuplets 2nd (qty 2).
2) form inside tuplets 1st (qty 2), then outside tuplet 2nd (qty 1).
 
I found the documentation (manual) essentially useless in this regard, except to say that it can be done, and simply telling the OP to refer to the manual to form these "not complicated" tuplets is also useless help.  Mike Rosen's tip site also does not address nested tuplets.
 
I will provide detailed steps as to how I formed the tuplets when I have more time.  Right now, I have to leave my computer and go to orchestra rehearsal.  Until then.


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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 2/25/2013 1:43:21 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Zuill - 2/25/2013 4:22 PM
In Speedy:

1. Create the 8th triplet.
2. With cursor on the first note, ctrl-3.
3. Change the first note to 16th.
4. Insert the next 2 16ths.
5. With cursor on last 8th, press ctrl-3.
6. Change to 16th note.
7. Enter last 2 16ths.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
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Posted By : Motet - 2/25/2013 4:43 PM
Thanks, Zuill. My mistake was in trying to do the notes in order, which is possible if the nesting doesn't occur at the beginning. For example, if the first triplet eighth is an eighth, but the second itself is a triplet of 16ths, you can press ^3 again at that point and enter the 16ths, and then be back to the original triplet for the last eighth.

What I didn't try for the OP's case was ^1 to set up the eighths and then ^3 before entering the 16ths. I can conceive of that working, perhaps, but am away from my Finale machine.


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Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 12:01 AM
^1 ^3 doesn't work. I was able to do it in Speedy following Zuill's method. "Change" vs. "insert" involves pressing the Insert key, so it's all pretty arcane. Maybe this is a case where the tuplet tool will help?


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Posted By : Zuill - 2/26/2013 12:06 AM
I'm not sure what the confusion is. After reading the complete thread, I see Vaughan already explained what I do. It is pretty simple and straightforward. Is this not covered in the documentation? Maybe I should look.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 2/25/2013 10:10:30 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 12:24 AM
I'm not sure what Vaughan means by "using shift." With the cursor in "replace" mode, I changed the first note to a 16th. But if I press the press Shift-3 twice, I get the following mess.
 
 
Perhaps he's talking about Simple entry.
 
If I instead press the Insert key to go into insert mode, then it works. But I maintain it's arcane.


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Posted By : Zuill - 2/26/2013 12:29 AM
That must be a Mac thing. For Windows, press the Insert key.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 2/25/2013 10:33:13 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 12:32 AM
Ah. An important distinction for the O.P.

One must also point out then that one needs to be in Replace mode to begin with, as denoted by a subtle change in the cursor.


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Posted By : k_ben - 2/26/2013 4:58 AM
Thanks a lot for all the participants and the solution.
I didn't think that my question will cause such a long discussion; that's what happens when one tries to "translate" jazz improvisation into classical notation...
It seems that this should be improved by the documentation of Finale.
Greets,
Benny

Posted By : Vaughan - 2/26/2013 6:12 AM
Ah yes, sorry. Finale Mac does indeed use the shift key to insert notes/rests. Shift is used by itself for 'quick insertion' and Shift-I is used to go into insert mode which is denoted by the subtle cursor change. One only needs to be in insert mode when making the 2nd and 3rd notes of the first nested triplet.


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Posted By : Vaughan - 2/26/2013 6:14 AM
P.S. I'd already written in my first post that I'm a Speedy Entry user. I've never done this in Simple although I'm sure it's just as straightforward. I really don't see what's arcane about the process.


Vaughan

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Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 12:34 PM
Since you're a power user, perhaps you're not seeing it via a novice's eyes. Having to enter a dummy first note, then go back and change its duration and the switch modes to insert new notes is a pretty non-intuitive work-around. If one could nest Ctrl-3's at the beginning, it would be easier:

Ctrl-3 Ctrl-3 16th 16th 16th 8th Ctrl-3 16th 16th 16th

Like I said such nesting does work if it's not at the beginning. If the first note of the bigger triplet was instead a simple eighth and the other two were 16th triplets, you can do

Ctrl-3 8th Ctrl-3 16th 16th 16th Ctrl-3 16th 16th 16th

Maybe they didn't allow this at the beginning because they were afraid someone would accidently hit Ctrl-3 twice for an ordinary triplet.


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Posted By : Vaughan - 2/26/2013 1:20 PM
Point well-taken, Motet.


Vaughan

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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 2/26/2013 2:35 PM

As I said I would do, please find included four ways that I was able to form the first complex nested tuplet given by the OP, two using Simple entry, and two using Speedy entry.
These are not the only ways to form the tuplet.  Others have posted their methods.  Later, I will post methods I found to form the second example of a complex tupet posted by the OP.

This post is long, and for that my apologies, but I tried to be detailed and complete, so that a novice could follow the steps.  I could find nothing in the documentation that explained any steps necessary to form complex nested tuplets, except to say that it could be done.  I don't consider these methods straightforward.  They only become so with familiarity.  Being a physicist/mathematician by occupation (retired), I would find the derivation of Maxwell's equations of classical electrodynamics to be "straightforward" after completing a course of study, but I dare say the very looks of them as partial differential equations would be disconcerting and incomprehensible to the uninitiated, as they were to me when I first saw them.  So, for what it is worth, here are my methods.  I hope they are clear and free of errors.  If you find any errors, please point them out.

Simple Entry - Outside tuplet 1st, then inside tuplets

1) Choose the 8th note
2) Click in an 8th note in an empty 4/4 measure
3) Press ALT-9.  Make sure 3 eighths in the space of 2 eighths is chosen.  OK.
4) Overstrike resulting 2 eighth rests with 2 eighth notes.  This completes the outside tuplet.
5) Select the Tuplet Tool (not to be confused with the tuplet modifier in the Simple Entry palette).  This will fill out the measure with rests, provided Simple Options are set to do so.
6) Double click the 1st eighth note to bring up the "Tuplet Definition" dialog box.  Make sure 3 16ths in the space of 1 eighth is chosen. OK.
7) Choose the Simple Entry Tool again.  CTRL-click the first eighth note to select it.  Press ALT-3 (numpad) to change it to a 16th note.
8) Choose the 16th note (with no modifiers).  Zoom in to at least 200% to make the next steps easier
9) Carefully position the Simple Entry 16th note cursor to between the just changed 16th note and the next 8th note to its right.  Click in the 2nd of the 16th notes of the first inside tuplet.
10) Carefully position the cursor to between the just entered 16th note and the eighth note to its right.  Click in the 3rd of the 16th notes of the first inside tuplet.
11) Repeat steps 5 thru 12 except in step 6) choose the last of the eighth notes of the outside tuplet to double click on, and in steps 11) and 12) position the cursor to between the 16th note and the quarter note rest to its right.
12) And there you have it.  You may want to remove the number "3" on the two 16th note inside tuplets.  This is done with the Tuplet Tool by clicking on the 1st of the 16th notes in the group, then right clicking on the tuplet handle and choosing to "Edit Tuplet Definition...".  When you click on the 1st 16th note, observe that two handles appear, because that note is the 1st note in 2 tuplets, the 16th note inside tuplet as well as the 8th note outside tuplet.  Make sure to right click on the left most handle, the one attached to the 16th note tuplet.  In the "Appearance" Grouping, choose "Nothing" in the dropdown for "Number".  Repeat for the 2nd 16th note tuplet.

Simple Entry - Inside tuplets 1st, then outside tuplet.  (This is actually easier than the other way.)

1) Choose the 16th note
2) Click in a 16th note in an empty 4/4 measure
3) Press ALT-9.  Make sure 3 16ths in the space of 1 eighth is choosen.  OK.
4) Overstrike the resulting 2 16th note rests with 16th notes.  This completes one inside tuplet.
5) Choose the 8th note.
6) Click in an 8th note.
7) Repeat steps 1) thru 4).  This will complete the 2nd inside tuplet.
8) Select the Tuplet Tool.  This will fill out the measure with rests provided the Simple Options are set to do so.
9) Double click on 1st 16th note in the first tuplet to bring up the "Tuplet Definition" dialog box.  Make sure 3 8ths in the space of 2 eights is chosen.  OK.
10) And there you have it.  As before, you may want to remove the inside tuplet numbers.  Also the rests that fill out the measure may need some adjusting to get what you want.  Just delete them all within Simple entry and exit the measure.  Finale will refill the measure with a quarter note and a half note rest.  MIDI quantization settings will affect this too.

Speedy Entry - Outside tuplet 1st, then inside tuplets

1) Click in an empty 4/4 measure.  Position the cursor on the note you want using the up/down arrows
2) Press CTRL-1 to bring up the "Tuplet Definition" dialog box.  Make sure 3 eighths in the space of 2 eighths is chosen. OK.
3) Press numpad 4 (8th note) three times to enter the outside tuplet.
4) Select the Tuplet Tool.  This will fill out the measure with rests provided Speedy Options is set to do so.
5) Double click on the 1st eighth note of the outside tuplet.  This brings up the "Tuplet Definition" dialog box.  Make sure 3 16ths in the space of 1 eighth is chosen.  OK.
6) Double click on the last eighth note of the outside tuplet.  This brings up the "Tuplet Definition" dialog box again.  Make sure 3 16ths in the space of 1 eighth is chosen.  OK.  The two inside tuplets have now been "defined".
7) Select Speedy entry and click in the measure to bring up the edit frame again.  Position the cursor over the 1st eighth note of the outside tuplet.  Speedy entry is in the "Replace" mode, so if you press a numpad note value, like 3 for a 16th note, the note under the cursor, the 8th note in this case, will be replaced with a 16th note.
8) In order to complete the 1st 16th note inside tuplet with 2 more 16th notes, you have to put Speedy entry into "Insert" mode.  Since my keyboard does not have an Insert key (Ins) except in the numpad, this is easiest to do with the Speedy Menu.  That way you don't have to keep toggling "Num Lock" on an off to use the Ins key (0), an error prone procedure for sure. "Arrow heads" will be added to the top and bottom of the vertical cursor bar to indicate that you are now in "Insert" mode.  Press the numpad 3 (16th note) twice to complete the tuplet.
9) Place Speedy entry back into "Replace" mode using the Speedy menu.  Position the cursor over the last 8th note in the outside tuplet, and replace it with a 16th note by pressing numpad 3.
10) Go back into "Insert" mode and press numpad 3 (16th) twice to complete the 2nd inside tuplet.
11) And there you have it.  As before, you may want to remove the inside tuplet numbers.

Speedy Entry - Inside tuplets 1st, then outside tuplet.  (This is actually easier than the other way.)

1) Click in an empty 4/4 measure.  Position the cursor on the note you want using the up/down arrows.
2) Press CTRL-1 to bring up the "Tuplet Definition" dialog box.  Make sure 3 16ths in the space of 1 eighth is choosen. OK.
3) Press numpad 3 (16th note) three times to complete the 1st inside tuplet.
4) Press numpad 4 once to enter an eighth note.
5) Repeat steps 2) and 3) to complete the last inside tuplet.
6) Select the Tuplet Tool.  This will fill out the measure with rests provided the Speedy Options are set to do so.
7) Double click on 1st 16th note in the first tuplet to bring up the "Tuplet Definition" dialog box.  Make sure 3 8ths in the space of 2 eights is chosen.  OK.
8) And there you have it.  As before, you may want to remove the inside tuplet numbers.  Also the rests that fill out the measure may need some adjusting to get what you want.  Just delete them all within Speedy entry and exit the measure.  Finale will refill the measure with a quarter note and a half note rest.  MIDI quantization settings will affect this too.


Good luck.


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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 2/26/2013 12:53:30 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Flint - 2/26/2013 3:08 PM
Sometimes it's easier just to enter the notes and then switch to the Tuplet tool.


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Posted By : Zuill - 2/26/2013 3:39 PM
I think we are making this much more complicated than it really is.

Zuill

P.S.: There is no need to exit Speedy to do the OP's first sample. There are so very few steps just staying in Speedy that anything else is overkill.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 2/26/2013 1:51:50 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 3:51 PM
Flint said...
Sometimes it's easier just to enter the notes and then switch to the Tuplet tool.

I should get to know that tool. I've managed to avoid it all these years.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Posted By : ttw - 2/26/2013 3:51 PM
On thing I found nice in the discussions was the idea of zooming to 200% or so when inserting sixteenth-notes between two other notes. It's probably obvious, but I overlooked it, I normally operate around 75% size in scroll mode so there isn't much room.


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Posted By : Mike Rosen - 2/26/2013 3:53 PM
Did Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, et. al., ever need that kind of notation?

Just askin'...



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Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 3:53 PM
Sure.

Having to zoom is another argument in favor of arcanity. :-)


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Posted By : Zuill - 2/26/2013 4:05 PM
The Insert tool doesn't really require the notes to space until you're done. If you do need to zoom, that is fine as well. Going in and out of the Speedy frame (using the 0 key) is all that is usually needed.

Zuill

P.S.: In Speedy, using a MIDI keyboard, I was able to enter the 8th triplet with a 16th triplet on each end in 20 seconds. In order to not show the 3's on the 16th triplets, I would have to add a bit more time, but I think they should be there anyway. Editing the look and position of the 3's does add a bit of time, but the note entry should be the primary task.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 2/26/2013 2:14:55 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 4:17 PM
I guess if I was writing this I would add a bracket for the bigger triplet and raise it up to encompass the lesser 3's.


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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 2/26/2013 5:23 PM

Zuill,

Not everybody uses or even likes Speedy entry, or a MIDI keyboard.  To each his own.  I think it is good to present as many methods as possible so each user can find a method(s) that they understand and are comfortable using.

BTW:  I like your's and Vaughan's Speedy method over my Speedy method (outside 1st then inside), but the fact that you don't have to leave Speedy and use the Tuplet Tool is not obvious.  In essence, you are really using the Tuplet Tool "behind the scenes" when you go back and press CTRL-3 on the 1st and last 8th notes.  As I mentioned, my keyboard (MS Natural MultiMedia KB) does not have an Ins key except in the numpad with NumLock off, so going into "Insert" mode is best accomplished for me by using the Speedy Menu.

PS:  If you made the insides first, I think you have to use the Tuplet Tool to make the outside last.  No?


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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 2/26/2013 3:33:03 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Motet - 2/26/2013 5:40 PM
How bizarre about eliminating the Insert key. I looked at some pictures online. The keyboard is big, so it's not to save space. They seem to have made the Delete key twice as big instead. What were they thinking?


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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 2/26/2013 5:43 PM
What were they thinking?!?!


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

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"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Zuill - 2/26/2013 7:30 PM
I can do what I did in Speedy without the MIDI keyboard almost as fast. I wasn't aware the Insert key was not a standard option.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 2/26/2013 7:58 PM

I suspect an Ins key is standard equipment on most keyboards, but leave it to Microsoft to find a way to leave it out.

Regarding the 2nd tuplet example the OP posted, it looks daunting, but in fact is not so bad to form in either Simple or Speedy.  There is no nesting involved here.  It is somewhat non-standard, but it is just a "6 16ths in the place of 1 quarter" tuplet.  Such tuplet oddities are no problem for Finale.  Here are the two ways I found, one in Simple and one in Speedy.

Simple

1) Select the eighth note and click it into an empty 4/4 measure.  Press R to change it into a rest.

2) Press ALT-9.  Make sure 6 16ths in the place of 1 quarter is chosen.  OK.  Note that 4 more 16th note rests are entered.

3) Choose the 16th note (numpad 3) and overstrike each of the rests with a note.  After entering the 2nd note, press / to remove the beam.

Speedy

1) Click in an empty 4/4 measure to bring up the frame.

2) Press CTRL-1.  Make sure 6 16ths in the place of 1 quarter is chosen. OK.

3) Press numpad 4 (8th note).  Press R to change it to a rest.

4) Press numpad 3 (16th note) 4 times.  After entering the 2nd note, press / to remove the beam.  It's scrunched up as you enter, but once you leave the measure, Finale will respace everything nicely.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

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Finale 2012c.r13

 

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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 2/26/2013 6:01:14 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Zuill - 2/26/2013 11:34 PM
It might be faster in Speedy to press Ctrl-6, enter a 16th note, then change it to an 8th, then proceed. Also, a rest without MIDI can be entered with Ctrl-Shift and QWERTY number. Some shortcuts can make things go faster.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 2/27/2013 3:45 PM

Thanks Zuill,

There are so many ways to do things.  One gets into a rut with one's own work flow and soon forgets about the other ways.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Dell XPS 600, GenuineIntel Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.00GHz [Intel64 Family 15 Model 4 Stepping 4] (2 processors)
8GB Ram
HT Omega Striker 7.1
MSI N430GT 2GB GPU
1TB x 4 internal HD's

Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Edition, (06.01.7600.00)
Finale 2012c.r13

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell