The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=462676
Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/20/2015 2:58 PM
How does one create a multi-measure rest for a double-staffed instrument with one large number between the staves?

See attachment.


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Posted By : Peter Thomsen - 10/20/2015 3:25 PM
I do not know of a general solution that “at one fell swoop” will fix only all the double-staffed instruments without affecting the single-staffed instruments.

My guess is that you will have to edit each multimeasure rest individually:
Selection Tool.
Click the multimeasure rest to select it.
Edit menu > Multimeasure Rests > Edit…
(or use the context menu)
You end in the dialog box Multimeasure Rest.

Two ways:

1) (N. Grossingink):
Edit the MM Rest so that "Start Numbering at…" is a number larger than the rest’s value.
You'll have to use an Expression for the single number.
Set the positioning so that the expression is vertically centered between the staves, and horizontally "Center Over/Under Music".

2) (Zuill):
Use the Staff Tool to hide the MM rest in the upper staff.
In that way the MM number will only appear between the two staves.
You may have to adjust the number’s vertical position.
In the pane Shape, clear the MM rest shape’s shape number, and then click the button “Select…”.
Because the shape number was cleared, you get to the Shape Selection where you can duplicate the MM shape, and edit the duplicate so that the shape displays two H symbols.
Position the added H symbol so that it precisely appears in front of the upper staff.

Peter


Mac Finale, 2011c, 2012c & 2014d, Dolet 6.4 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.9.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM


Posted By : Motet - 10/20/2015 4:33 PM
Sounds like a candidate for a plug-in, if not a new Finale feature.


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Posted By : Zuill - 10/20/2015 4:36 PM
I don't recall how easily the suggestion attributed to me is, but it seems burdensome now that I read it.

I am thinking just adjusting the number so that it centers between the staff is easiest. Then, create an expression of white space to mask the upper number. The only way this might not work is if it bumps into another staff in the score.

Another way is to make the vertical placement amount high enough to shoot it off the page. Then use an expression for the number.

Zuill

P.S.: In all honesty, N. Grossingink's suggestion is the easiest. Go with that.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Post Edited (Zuill) : 10/20/2015 4:48:55 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Motet - 10/20/2015 5:10 PM
To make N. Grossingink's expression perfectly centered between the barlines, add

(Spacing_After_Music - Spacing_Before_Music) / 2

additional horizontal offset to the Center Over/Under Music. These values are specified in Document Options/Notes and Rests, and the default values work out to a negative number (-16 EVPU) (since there is space before but not after, the expression must be shifted left a little).


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Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/20/2015 9:03 PM
Thank you, gentlemen, for your help. That is an elegant work-around, but as you well realize, not quite satisfactory from the practical point of view.

Please forgive me, MakeMusic, but I don't understand why the standard multi-meaure rest for double-staffing is a work-around. Could it be because there is no way to keep an expression centered between two staves in Finale?


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The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : RMK - 10/21/2015 1:58 PM
(very O/T)

The better the composer, the better the notation.

-------------------------------------------------------

So, I'm guessing Charles Ives is not a favorite of yours?

;>)

Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/21/2015 4:37 PM
To me, Ives is more of an enigma than a favorite, but he was creative in his use of musical notation to express what he wanted, and for that he gets an A in my book. However, I've never had an opportunity to study his manuscripts and judge only from his published music like 114 Songs and the Piano Sonatas.

I guess my gut feeling is that Ives was a stunted, fragmented genius who didn't come close to his potential, but I haven't listened to his music in a while. I think that the US has had two composers who could have matched the level of the very greatest: Charles Ives and George Gershwin. One was born too early and the other died too early. Maybe we will get it right next time.

What do you think, RMK?


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Posted By : Andreo Basisto - 10/21/2015 6:09 PM
John - There is one extra step to N. Grossingink's’s method – it is necessary to go to Document Options > Multimeasure rests > Uncheck "Update Automatically”. This stops the hidden numbers reappearing when you’re about to print the part out.

Andreo Basisto


 
=======================================================
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Posted By : RMK - 10/21/2015 6:27 PM
John Ruggero said...
What do you think, RMK?


Who knows who will eventually be considered a great composer?

Salieri, Spohr and Cherubini were at least, if not more, well-regarded than Mozart and Beethoven in their day.

I don't think this will be decided until we are long gone. Perhaps Phillip Glass and Mason Bates will turn out to be the great composers. Time will tell.

Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/21/2015 8:36 PM
Andrea, thanks for that tip. The reappearing numbers would be startling after all the work of putting in those numbers by hand!

RMK, I guess I don't subscribe to the unsung genius theory.

But I am disappointed that no one took up my comment about Finale being unable to position expressions midway between two staves. This would be a great boon to those who engrave piano music. We are constantly centering dynamics and hairpins. Finale could be doing this more accurately.


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Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 10/22/2015 6:38:35 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Motet - 10/21/2015 10:59 PM
I think I said as much above.


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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/22/2015 10:22 AM

John, et al.,

I am almost through working out the details of a JW Lua script that will accomplish this task.  It will be based on N.'s, Motet's, and Andreo's suggestions.  To be complete, there are several additional issues that have to be considered.  Among them are the font and size to be used for the expression.  I will assume TNR 18 B.  Motet's idea needs to be expanded to include a center justification.  Also the span between staves of the relevant system must be considered in order to center the expression number between the staves, as it may be that you have increased/decreased it from the default.  The document can only have a double stave, and you must select the previously created MMR stack.  A new expression category would be nice, but alas, JW Lua cannot create a new category due to restrictions imposed by MM in the Plug-in Development Kit (PDK), so I will use the Miscellaneous category.  If anyone has any ideas to be considered/included in the script, please post them here, or PM or email me.  As soon as I have debugged the script and added a nice GUI, I will post it here.  Stand by.

BTW:  Motet, I don't think you mentioned the fact that printing will bring back the hidden original numbers unless the option is unchecked as Andreo correctly points out.  My script will perform this task, so you won't have to worry about it.



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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 10/22/2015 10:31:09 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/22/2015 10:27 AM
Sorry, Motet, you were probably way ahead of me, because I thought you were referring only to a new feature for standard multi-measure rests for double staffing. My ambitions increased when I realized that it was Finale's lack of control over vertical centering that produces this problem and also others that are even more significant. It was that latter part that I hoped would be taken up for discussion. But I guess there is little demand for automatic vertical centering between two staves.


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The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 10/22/2015 10:30:12 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : loweredsixth - 10/22/2015 10:45 AM
John Ruggero said...
Please forgive me, MakeMusic, but I don't understand why the standard multi-meaure rest for double-staffing is a work-around.


I looked through all of my notation books (Gould, Read, Stone, etc.), and none of them mention that this is the standard. I didn't know that everyone else was doing MM rests in a two-stave part this way. Has this always been the standard or is this a newer development?

Thanks

Joe


Finale 2014d
Windows 10


Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/22/2015 11:17 AM
Unbelievable, Charles Lawrence, I don't know what to say except: that is terrific! I think that you will have saved many people a lot of time with this script. Does MM incorporate these scripts? This should be the default for this situation.

If you are successful with the vertical centering, would your script or a development of it be applicable to other expressions like dynamics or even smart shapes like hairpins in a two staff part?

I am not sure what selecting "from a previously created MMR stack" means. That each rest will be converted separately?


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The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 10/22/2015 11:20:55 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/22/2015 12:03 PM
loweredsixth, these days, one makes a statement about what is standard with some trepidation. What one has seen for over 50 years in countless parts from a least a century, has personally copied in works from major American composers, and makes total sense on the face of it, is suddenly in doubt. Sometimes this is because a well-known notation product like Finale can't cope with the standard, and everyone, including The Authorities just gives up on what is correct. That may have happened with the multi-measure double-staffed rest.

All I can say is that I have never seen anything like what Finale produces for double-staffed multi-measure rest in the parts of the standard orchestral literature or piano solo literature. Browse around at IMSLP and you will see what has been done, and for a good reason: the large empty space between the staves of a double staffed part is a golden opportunity for one large very visible number.

I gave an example at the top by R. Strauss. Here are others by various composers:

http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/11/IMSLP37526-PMLP09904-Tchaikovsky-Op20.Harp.pdf
http://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/d/dd/IMSLP37679-PMLP38072-Debussy-Images1.Gigues.Harp.pdf
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/c/c3/IMSLP36518-PMLP21398-Faure-Requiem.Harp.pdf
onquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a3/IMSLP40466-PMLP11297-Brahms-Op045.Harp.pdf
http://burrito.whatbox.ca:15263/imglnks/usimg/2/24/IMSLP54577-PMLP45445-Bartok-Op03.Harp.pdf
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/1/12/IMSLP235873-SIBLEY1802.20435.ff01-39087015867973harp.pdf
http://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/8/8e/IMSLP213857-PMLP51151-G._Verdi_-_Nabucco_Harps_1__2.pdf


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Posted By : loweredsixth - 10/22/2015 12:06 PM
Thanks. I just find it odd that Gould and Read do not mention this at all, and especially Gould was VERY exhaustive in the subject of notation.


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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/22/2015 1:04 PM

John,  I'll try to answer as best I can.

>> Does MM incorporate these scripts? This should be the default for this situation.

I don't know, but I don't think so as a matter of course.  I think that some of the user developed stuff has been used as a basis for MM plug-ins if it is deemed to be of universal value.


>>If you are successful with the vertical centering, would your script or a development of it be applicable to other expressions like dynamics or even smart shapes like hairpins in a two staff part?

Probably.  I'll have to look into it with those goals in mind.


>>I am not sure what selecting "from a previously created MMR stack" means. That each rest will be converted separately?

All MMRs that are to be processed into the "double staff MMR" must have been created outside the script.  You can process only one MMR at a time.  You must select the MMR you want to process with the Select Tool.  Double clicking on the MMR in either staff will select the stack, although it won't matter which staff is selected, either or both.  Maybe a useful option would be to automatically process all MMRs found in the document.
 
 
 
One caveat that I see is that if you need to reorder the two staves after processing the MMR, that the number will move with the top staff.  Expressions are always measure attached, not page attached.  You will need to either reposition the number manually, or remove the expression and re-run the script.
 


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Posted By : Flint - 10/22/2015 3:30 PM
loweredsixth said...
Thanks. I just find it odd that Gould and Read do not mention this at all, and especially Gould was VERY exhaustive in the subject of notation.


Indeed, I just checked my copy, and in the Keyboard section and the Harp section, there is only one single multimeasure rest shown (pg. 358, Harp). It's between the staves but not centered, as that space is also displaying a pedal change.

Seems like a rather uncharacteristic oversight...


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If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read


Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/22/2015 4:49 PM
Charles Lawrence, Thank you for your answers. I actually didn't mean a plug-in, but the main event! What you are developing in terms of vertically centering expressions would seem to have deeper implications than one sees in a plug-in, as wonderful as plug-ins are.

Automatic processing of all the MMR rests would, of course, be quite desirable. It is hard to imagine when the staves would ever be reversed, but programmers have to think of all possibilities, I know. My wife was one.

Flint, I am embarrassed to say that I still don't have the Gould, so thanks for checking. As exhaustive as her book must be, oversights happen. I understand that there are other aspects of notation that she doesn't address, like beam angles.

loweredsixth, yes, it is odd that she doesn't go into it. Could she be avoiding the issue because it is so awkward to accomplish in Finale?
Can Sibelius do it?


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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/27/2015 5:32 PM
As promised, please find attached the first cut at a JW Lua script that will process double staff MMRs.  I tried to make it idiot proof, but intuitive.  If you find any problems with it, please post them here, email me or send a PM.
 
Enjoy! cool


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"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Zuill - 10/27/2015 8:43 PM
Sweet. Thank you.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/27/2015 9:13 PM
A compliment coming from "The Troll" really is sweet.  Thanks.  Check it out thoroughly.


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"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Zuill - 10/27/2015 10:52 PM
I don't have much experience with Lua. I gave up on Finalescript ages ago when it continually crashed my system.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"


Posted By : Motet - 10/28/2015 1:26 AM
Charles, some minor quibbles: I was a little confused by the dialog "Process entire score/part?" I finally figured out that checking the checkbox means "yes" (usually the exiting buttons answer the dialog question). But my suggestion would be that if there's a selection, do all the MMRs in the selection without further ado. If there's no selection at all, perhaps only then ask permission to do everything. One can always undo, after all.

If there's someway to remove the restriction that the part contain only a single grand staff, I think people would find that useful, too. Again, the user could select a grand staff only.

You seem to have encountered more unfortunate behavior with the notorious "Multimeasure rests: Update automatically" document option (updating apparently involves resetting the "count" threshold back to 2) which forced you to turn it off. A shame you had no other choice.

For the numbers, I think it would be good to use Document Options/Fonts/Notation/Multimeasure Rests for the font and point size (in the stock Maestro font default document it's Maestro 24). I realize this may not be possible to center it exactly vertically if you can't tell the character height from the font information. I guess another way to control the font conveniently is to make the user pick a category to put the numbers into, and use the category font.

But it seems to work and should be useful. Great work.

(In F2011, the numbers are 12-point, for some reason, but in F2014 they look pretty good at 18)


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Post Edited (Motet) : 10/28/2015 2:12:15 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/28/2015 7:50 AM

Motet,

Thanks for the feedback.  Those are some good suggestions.

1) I can change the way I retrieve the answer to the question "Process entire score/part?"  I can have a dialog box with Yes, No, Cancel instead of a checkbox.  I like the idea that if there is a selection to process all MMRs within the selection, and if no selection is made to ask to process entire score/part.  I was artificially requiring that the selection be a single MMR, but there is nothing to stop selecting a range of measures and process all MMRs within the range.  I'll look into that.

2) A grand staff is not necessary, but two and only two staves is, first because that's what John Ruggero wanted, and second because a MMR is applied to the entire measure stack of the score/part.  If there were 3 or more staves in the stack, empty measures in those staves would also be included in the MMR, which may or may not be what is desired.  Also any notes in any staff would preclude that measure stack from being included in the MMR.  Again, this may or may not be desirable.  That's why I chose to require two and only two staves in the score/part.  Comments/thoughts?

3) Regarding the font, there is no way to retrieve the character height, so that has to be empirically determined.  I suppose some kind of algorithm could be developed to approximate the height based on the font/size, but that's maybe overkill.  Too bad MM does not provide a way in the PDK.  I considered retrieving the MMR font spec from the document properties, but I did not pursue it, because I mistakenly thought that Maestro didn't have numbers, but it does.  I will definitely implement that in the next update.

4) Being able to choose a category, either predefined or user defined, or Miscellaneous could be implemented.  Then, other than Miscellaneous, you could choose the category font, or the document MMR font.  To me this does not add much usefulness to the procedure, but only complicates things.  That is why I just chose Miscellaneous and TNR/18/B.  Unless there is a demand for the category feature, I'll just keep using Miscellaneous, but get the MMR font spec from the document.


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Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Motet - 10/28/2015 10:39 AM
How will you deal with the unknown font height, though? The 24 point Maestro numbers are about the same size as your 18-point Times. Maybe exact vertical centering must be left to the human.

I see your point with other instruments present.


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Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/28/2015 10:42:08 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Motet - 10/28/2015 11:54 AM
I experimented and the Update MM's Automatically setting also resets any vertical displacement you've made as well as the number threshold. I can see redoing MMs in parts when you add notes in the score, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason for this other behavior. Mark Adler spoke of fixing Update Automatically with 2014.5, so perhaps if you're reading this, Mark, you can take this into account. My vote would be to update only the affected rests, and even then, don't mess with these settings.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/28/2015 12:33 PM
There is no good way to deal with it without a way to calculate the bounding box dimensions.  Even though it is easy to determine the document MMR font specs, I think it best to stick with the default of Maestro/24/plain, which I now set.  I now do not consider the character height (ie = 0), but now set the vertical adjustment in the document prefs for MMRs to 48 for Maestro/24/plain.  It seems to work fairly well.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)

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Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram

512 GB SSD system disk

Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/28/2015 2:27 PM
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Charles, I think that you just proved Zuill's' motto wrong, at least in this case. Thank you so much. This is a vast improvement over the workaround, and I hope that many will make use of it.

A few comments:

1. Maestro 24 pt does appear standard to me. See attached file by my hero.

2. A "Do not show this again" box for the first, second and third screens?

3. This style is also used for double-, triple-, and quadruple-staffed instrumental parts, so if there were demand for it and you were up for it, then this would be a nice addition. There is one complication, as you mention. A two piano score would have numbers only between the pairs of staves; two numbers in total. But a triple- or quadruple-staffed instrumental part would have numbers in all spaces.

4. Vertical centering is lost if staves are moved after the MMR is processed with your program. So this should be the last step in finishing any part. If by chance, an adjustment must be made later, one can simply recenter by hand, or run your program again and delete the old number.

Automatic, real-time vertical centering and re-centering of all expressions and even hairpins (something like our present automatic music spacing) would be the ultimate for those of us who do a lot of piano music. I think that the difficulty in doing this is why the standard MMR for double-staffing was ignored by Finale. Now, thanks to Charles Lawrence, we have the capability of adhering to standard notation for this rest.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
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The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : Motet - 10/28/2015 3:14 PM
John Ruggero said...
I think that the difficulty in doing [vertical centering] is why the standard MMR for double-staffing was ignored by Finale.


My guess is it's not all that difficult (look what else Finale can do!) but was rather was just an oversight. Ideally it would be a function of the group attributes, like drawing barlines.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/28/2015 3:52 PM

John,

I'm glad you found the script useful for work workflow.  I am currently revising the script to incorporate some of the suggestions made by Motet.  As usual, a programmers work is never done!  There can always be improvements.  Consider Finale in this regard.

For the purpose of this script, I think it best to force the font for the numbers to be Maestro/24/plain, but to restore the font to what was found in the document options at the end of the script.  I think it best to leave the Update Automatically option turned off.  With it on, bad things happen.

I had considered that displaying the lengthy intro dialog box, and maybe others, might become cumbersome after gaining familiarity with the script.  I'll see if I can find a way to flag it to be turned off.  This would require an external INI type file to save the flag.

Vertical centering would not be difficult provided you have the dimensions of the bounding box for the object you want to center.  This is not available with the current revision of MakeMusic's Plug-in Development Kit (PDK).  Hopefully this will be implemented in the near future.  JW Lua cannot do what is not provided for in the PDK.

The expression for the number is attached to the measure in the top staff, not the page.  Therefore, if the top stave is simply repositioned by whatever means, the number should follow.  If the staves are reordered, or the whitespace between the staves is modified, or the line spacing of the top staff is modified, then, as I previously pointed out, you will have to either manually reposition the number, or delete it and rerun the script, where the vertical spacing will be recalculated.
 
Let's get the double staff worked out before adding more staves.  Bear in mind the previously discussed issues associated with creating MMRs where more than two staves are involved.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

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Posted By : David Ward - 10/28/2015 3:57 PM
I'm now displaying my woeful ignorance of how Lua works.

I'd like to be able to use Charles' DoubleStaffMMR.lua, but having downloaded it, I discover that I don't know in which folder I need to install it, nor how to make it active.

Help!


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d with Mac 10.9.5
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK


Posted By : Motet - 10/28/2015 4:19 PM
You need the JWLua plug-in. It's got an odd interface that I haven't figured out, but if you go to Manager and then open, you can navigate to wherever you've put Charles's script.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : David Ward - 10/28/2015 5:11 PM
Motet said...
You need the JWLua plug-in. It's got an odd interface that I haven't figured out, but if you go to Manager and then open, you can navigate to wherever you've put Charles's script.
Thank you.

I also received a very helpful PM from John Ruggero on what to do, but as I said in reply to him, I'd now better wait until the weekend to work it out as I need to get myself organized for a brief trip away tomorrow (and it's getting quite late here).


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d with Mac 10.9.5
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK


Posted By : Motet - 10/28/2015 5:41 PM
Charles Lawrence said...
Let's get the double staff worked out before adding more staves. Bear in mind the previously discussed issues associated with creating MMRs where more than two staves are involved.


Yes, it seems like a conundrum. Since you need to replace all the MM numbers with expressions, seems like the only way to do it would be to list every staff with an option to either put a number above (normal), below and halfway to the next staff (centered), or omit it altogether. The default could be "below (centered)" for all staves but the bottom one, which would be "omit."

I don't blame you if this seems like overkill, though. Another option would be to just do that default and let the user delete or move anything that strays from that.

Attached is a multiple-keyboard part, and how I think it might look (not the above-described default).


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/28/2015 5:51:30 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/28/2015 7:43 PM

David Ward and others,

Here's how I set up my system.  I create a sub-directory "JW Plug-ins" in the directory where plug-ins go, pointed to by Edit->Preferences-Folders->Plugins.  I place the JW Lua plug-in (and its two auxiliary files) in that folder.  I create a new folder somewhere called "JW Lua scripts" and place my DoubleStaffMMR.lua file and any other JW Lua scripts in that directory.

At first you must run the JW Lua plugin and click on the "Manager" tab.  In the top pane called "Plug-in Groups" there is a default plug-in group called [Menu].  Select it.  Then in the bottom pane called "Items in Group", click on "New" to add a new item.  Navigate to where you saved my script file and double click it.  This will add an item, my script, to the menu, so that it will now show in the "JW Plug-ins" sub-directory in the "Plug-ins" menu dropdown.  Choose my script to start it.

After you have set up the menu item, you do not have to actually run the JW Lua plug-in to start any JW Lua script you have added to the menu, just choose it from the menu.

You can also select the "Development" tab in the JW Lua plug-in interface, and click the "open" button along the top.  Navigate to where you stored my script file and double click it to open the source code in the editor window.  Feel free to examine the code if you feel so inclined.  It is not secret nor proprietary in any way.  You may discover how JW Lua works under the hood.  JW Lua is not difficult, but there is a steep learning curve.  Although Lua is not object oriented in and of itself, it can be made to look like it is.  This is what Jari has done to provide the hooks into the PDK for JW Lua scripters.  To run the script click on the "Run script" button.  There is a pane at the bottom where any print commands in JW Lua will be displayed along with other messages.  My script does not print anything, but rather displays a dialog at the end with a count of processed MMRs.

Hope this helps.  I'm not sure what advice you got from John in the PM.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)

32 GB RAM

Realtek High Definition on board audio
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Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Zuill - 10/28/2015 9:50 PM
When you run the script in a part, the expression still shows in the score, where the script itself can't be run. I just right click the expression in the part and choose Expression Assignment. I then choose for this expression to be only in parts. That stifles it in the score. I know I could uncheck Show in the score, but I have chosen to see hidden items faintly. The first way doesn't show even the shadow in the score.

Maybe the script could choose this option? I wish I knew how to do it myself. Maybe someday, when I'm not so busy.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/29/2015 8:42 AM

Zuill,

I think that can be done.  I'll include it in the next revision.  Thanks for the feedback.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)

32 GB RAM

Realtek High Definition on board audio
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512 GB SSD system disk

Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Motet - 10/29/2015 3:45 PM
If the top staff is in more than one part, the expression may be unwanted in the other part(s) as well.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/29/2015 4:50 PM
I have an older version of JW Lua, so your script doesn't work for me.
But now, for the life of me, I can't figure out where to get the latest version of JW Lua!!! it's not in plugins on the usual website I go to for this (finaletips.nu).


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Motet - 10/29/2015 5:55 PM
Plug-ins/Beta Versions:

finaletips.nu/index.php/download/category/28-beta-version


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/29/2015 6:07:02 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/29/2015 7:53 PM
I downloaded it, then tried the script, but it keeps giving me a message that it should be 2 staves. I tried in the score (selecting only the harp part) and in the harp part itself (it is a 2-staff harp part, no hidden staves, no extra staves).

nothing I do works, it just gives me that message that it has to be a two staff system (or whatever)


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Zuill - 10/29/2015 7:57 PM
It works if you do it while in the Part itself.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/29/2015 9:12 PM
does it have to be an extracted part?

as I wrote in my post, I did it in the harp part as well as in the score. it does nothing in the linked harp part.

or is this a script that only works on Macs?


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/29/2015 11:05 PM

Michael,

No it does not have to be an extracted part.

No it is not for Macs only.  In fact I wrote the script on a Windows platform.

It should work in the harp part, if you have it selected for edit.

The reason I wrote it to require a two stave and only two stave score/part is because a MMR is applied to all the staves in the score/part.  If there are notes in any of the measures of the staves selected for MMR creation, it will prevent the creation of the MMR for those measures.  Besides the OP, John, asked for a double staff MMR.  If the score has more than two staves, e.g. a harp, piano, and string ensemble, you must select the harp or piano part that has two staves before the script will process any MMRs in that part.  For example, if the harp part has rests in measures 1,2 but the piano has notes, then in the score you cannot create a MMR for measures 1,2.  In the harp part, you can.

I may have to revise my thinking on the score/part to allow a selected MMR to be processed even if there are more staves that are not included in the selection.



"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)

32 GB RAM

Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram

512 GB SSD system disk

Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 10/29/2015 11:08:42 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/29/2015 11:25 PM
I'm trying it from the linked harp part.
and it's not working, telling me it must be a 2 staff part (which it is).

***edit

I just tried it from a bank new document, with only a harp part, and it worked.

I have no idea why the harp part (created using the default harp in the score creation wizard) in my complete orchestral score is not working.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

Post Edited (Michel R. E.) : 10/29/2015 11:28:32 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/29/2015 11:37 PM
I use a staff style for the 1st measure of movements that hides the staff lines and left and right barlines, and I force-hide the 2nd staff of any double-staff parts (like the harp) so I can insert the movement title as a text expression that auto-centers between each end of the measure.
This might have been PART of the problem, at least, after removing the staff style from that first measure and unhiding the bottom staff, the script ran a bit further.. but...

then I got this error message:

script error while running JW Lua script:
...012]plug-ins\JWLUA_scripts\DoubleStaffMMR.lua.94
Attempt to perform arithmetic on a nil value (local 'stavesSpan')


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/30/2015 10:11 AM

Michael,

Could you post or email me the mus(x) file causing the problem?  It sounds like you have a much more complicated document than I ever tested with.  It seems to be finding some unforeseen logic errors.  Maybe I can pin the problem down.  Your document is safe with me.

Hidden staves and staves with styles are certainly conditions I did not consider. blush  As I suspected would happen, this project is ballooning far beyond my original, and apparently simplistic first approach.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)

32 GB RAM

Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram

512 GB SSD system disk

Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 10/30/2015 10:38:30 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/30/2015 1:42 PM
Thank-you Charles, I have sent you the file via email.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Graeme Gilmore - 10/31/2015 1:03 AM
Looking through my files, I discovered one that has instructions for the 2-staff multimeasure rest as described by Zuill in 2005. I used it in 2009 with Finale 2010 for a 4-hand piano piece. The advantage of these file is that it has the second multimeasure bar for the upper staff already created and positioned.

I am enclosing Zuill's file from Finale 2005 and one with slightly modified instructions I made for myself that I only have in Finale 2014 format (plus the XML equivalent for convenience of older versions).


Graeme


Finale 2014d v/5030, Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium, GPO, TGTools, Patterson Plug-Ins, JW Plug-Ins


Posted By : Motet - 10/31/2015 12:27 PM
If it's part of a bigger piece (more parts) you'd have to extract the part, though.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/31/2015 12:30:11 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 11/2/2015 11:36 AM
Interested Forum members,
 
Please find attached version 2.0 of my JW Lua script to process double staff MMRs.  I have revamped the script to remove all unnecessary dialog boxes.  The way the script works now is to process all double staff MMRs found in the selected region of the score/part.  If no region is selected, the script will process all double staff MMRs found in the score/part.  In order to qualify for processing, the selected portion of a found MMR must have two and only two visible staves.  Normally a score will not have any MMRs that qualify, since an MMR applies to the complete measure stack when created, and any notes found in any measures of the stack will preclude those measures from inclusion in the MMR.  Rarely will all the instruments in the score have full measures of rest at the same time.  Parts are normally where qualified MMRs will be found.  If a score/part does have an MMR where there are more than two visible staves, you can repeatedly select the portion of the MMR that contains any two adjacent visible staves and rerun the script on that selection to get double staffed processed MMRs for the complete MMR measure stack.
 
Again, any feedback is welcomed.  I have tested the script as best I could for as many scenarios as I could imagine.  I'm sure there must be some configuration out there where the script will misbehave.  Let me know if it doesn't work, or you don't understand what it is doing, or how to work it.
 
Enjoy! smilewinkgrin
 
[PS]  Just replace the old script with the new one in whatever place you put it.

[PPS]  I tried to implement all the fine suggestions I received from the various posters.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)

32 GB RAM

Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram

512 GB SSD system disk

Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 11/2/2015 10:47:08 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 11/2/2015 11:36 AM
Charles, any news on an updated file for JW Lua?


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 11/2/2015 11:42 AM

Michel,

I'm not sure what you mean, but the latest JW Lua version available at this time is Beta 0.42 for Windows and Beta 0.41 for Mac.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

 

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)

32 GB RAM

Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram

512 GB SSD system disk

Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 11/2/2015 12:17 PM
Charles Lawrence said...
Michel,

I'm not sure what you mean, but the latest JW Lua version available at this time is Beta 0.42 for Windows and Beta 0.41 for Mac.


aha, we posted simultaneously... I meant your wonderful script for JW Lua.
I didn't see that you had updated it because you did so as I was asking the question!


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 11/2/2015 12:20 PM
Fantastic!
it works beautifully so far... although I'm pretty sure I'll find SOMETHING with which to break it!
smilewinkgrin

Charles Lawrence said...
Interested Forum members,


Please find attached version 2.0 of my JW Lua script to process double staff MMRs. I have revamped the script to remove all unnecessary dialog boxes. The way the script works now is to process all double staff MMRs found in the selected region of the score/part. If no region is selected, the script will process all double staff MMRs found in the score/part. In order to qualify for processing, the selected portion of a found MMR must have two and only two visible staves. Normally a score will not have any MMRs that qualify, since an MMR applies to the complete measure stack when created, and any notes found in any measures of the stack will preclude those measures from inclusion in the MMR. Rarely will all the instruments in the score have full measures of rest at the same time. Parts are normally where qualified MMRs will be found. If a score/part does have an MMR where there are more than two visible staves, you can repeatedly select the portion of the MMR that contains any two adjacent visible staves and rerun the script on that selection to get double staffed processed MMRs for the complete MMR measure stack.



Again, any feedback is welcomed. I have tested the script as best I could for as many scenarios as I could imagine. I'm sure there must be some configuration out there where the script will misbehave. Let me know if it doesn't work, or you don't understand what it is doing, or how to work it.



Enjoy! smilewinkgrin



[PS] Just replace the old script with the new one in whatever place you put it.
[PPS] I tried to implement all the fine suggestions I received from the various posters.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Motet - 11/2/2015 12:21 PM
Thank you, Charles. I look forward to using it.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : John Ruggero - 11/2/2015 12:29 PM
Charles, what wonderful job! Runs like a watch. No fuss or muss, just gets the job done. Hopefully Finale users will take notice and bring their double-staffed parts up to standard.

And it will not only do parts with two or more double-staffed instruments or groups, but also triple, quintuple, etc.-staffed by creating two or more overlapping groups!

This really deserves to be at the very least a regular plug-in or better, part of Finale proper, MM.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 11/2/2015 12:56 PM

Thanks John.

I have put a lot of time and effort into this.  You inspired me to set out on this venture.  Like Michel said, somebody will no doubt come up with a situation that breaks it, or that I have not considered in the design.

A couple of things that might need mentioning for those who have not followed the thread.

The script will accommodate any re-sizing of the white space between the staves, as well as changing the line spacing of either/both staves, all within reason, of course.   You can also re-order the staves.  These operations should be done before running the script.  Since the number is now an expression, any changes done after running the script, may require that the expression be manually repositioned.  The font used for the number is always Maestro/24/plain and therefore may not be appropriate if the spacing of the page is small, like on a large full orchestra score.  It's on my to do list to see if something can be done in this case.  Also, if the MMR is set to display a range, it might collide.  No provision has been made to avoid collisions of the number expression with any other objects in the whitespace.  These adjustments will need to be done manually. 


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Posted By : rowild - 5/8/2016 12:11 PM
Hi, Charles,

I found your Lua script just recently and I am overwhelmed what you did here!

Trying to get into Lua scripting for Finale, too, I thought, I might expand on your script a bit and wonder if that would be ok with you.
My ideas are to check if a MMR number already exists in the Expression Tools and use that one instead of always creating new entries. Also, before running the script, if should delete any old MMRs and then apply the new ones, so only one MMR expression item is placed onto the staves... And maybe even try to implement a text definition dialog...

But that is only theory...

Let me know if you wish that I keep my fingers from it. or if you intend to publish a new version, which probably inherits the features already...

However... thanks a lot!
Robert

Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 5/8/2016 4:09 PM

Robert,

The script is not proprietary, so feel free to modify it for improvements you may have in mind.  Just include comments in the Plug-in Definition area and elsewhere in the body of the script to document what you do and give yourself credit.  I used ideas from several forum members when developing the script in the first place.

Good luck.  JW Lua is not easy and has a steep learning curve.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

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Posted By : Peter West - 5/9/2016 12:54 PM
I hide them all by setting vertical offset to -1000 and re-making all the MM rests. I then create an expression category with the appropriate font, to show above the bottom staff and centred between the bar lines. If you use maestro font then the character's base line is in the middle of the number and is easily aligned with the centre of the piano/harp etc brace.


Peter
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