The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=486673
Posted By : Shnootre - 10/12/2016 1:13 PM
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/dorico/start.html

They've taken down the crossgrade pricing they had listed (I think it was around $299 for crossgrade from Finale or Sibelius, but only until March 2017).

According to Steinberg there will be a free trial available around 4-5 weeks after the launch.

I've been a Finale user for 23 years, but I'd be lying if I told you I wasn't very excited and hopeful about this product.


Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X


Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 10/12/2016 1:50 PM
Looking forward to do the test drive also.
www.steinberg.net/en/products/dorico/what_is_dorico.html


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.2, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)


Posted By : stringtapper - 10/12/2016 4:05 PM
If that Engrave mode functions the way it sounds then I might very well jump ship, which is something I've never considered in the 16 years I've been using Finale.

To be able to just work graphically without any ties to an audio engine or even musical rules would make the work I do so much easier (scholarly music examples mostly).


2.9 GHz i5 27" iMac 8GB 10.10.1 / 2.5 GHz i7 17" MacBook Pro 16GB 10.10.1 / Finale 2014d / GPO4 / Kontakt 5 / Logic Pro 10.0.7


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/12/2016 4:36 PM
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??

Then I'll never try it. There's no F***ing way I am installing that monstrosity that is Windows 10.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 10/12/2016 4:42 PM
Michel R. E. said...
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??

Then I'll never try it. There's no F***ing way I am installing that monstrosity that is Windows 10.


I'm thinking it just may function just fine on Windows 7 and on up. You know windows is not as dysfunctional with software as MAC is.


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.2, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)


Posted By : michelp - 10/12/2016 4:44 PM
It would be wise not to "jump ship" too early because version 1.0 will be missing some important features :
No chord symbols, no repeat ending lines, no fingerings, no jazz articulations, no rhythm slashes, limited support for third party virtual instruments (according to a pdf, with detailed features)


Michel
Finale 2014.5, 2012c (main), MacOsX 10.11.6, Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express, 3 monitors.


Posted By : stringtapper - 10/12/2016 5:00 PM
michelp said...
It would be wise not to "jump ship" too early because version 1.0 will be missing some important features :
No chord symbols, no repeat ending lines, no fingerings, no jazz articulations, no rhythm slashes, limited support for third party virtual instruments (according to a pdf, with detailed features)


Yeah I saw all of that. In reality it's not like I'm going to uninstall Finale as soon as I install Dorico. I mean I still have Sibelius installed even though I rarely use it.

But if Dorico does have a truly free graphical mode then I will certainly be doing the bulk of my work with it. Being able to limit my work to one application instead of Finale –> Illustrator would be a huge workflow improvement for me.


2.9 GHz i5 27" iMac 8GB 10.10.1 / 2.5 GHz i7 17" MacBook Pro 16GB 10.10.1 / Finale 2014d / GPO4 / Kontakt 5 / Logic Pro 10.0.7


Posted By : Shnootre - 10/12/2016 11:03 PM
michelp said...
It would be wise not to "jump ship" too early because version 1.0 will be missing some important features :
No chord symbols, no repeat ending lines, no fingerings, no jazz articulations, no rhythm slashes, limited support for third party virtual instruments (according to a pdf, with detailed features)



I could live without most of that, but not the limited support for third party virtual insts. It sounded to me like they were going to support most libraries; is that PDF publicly available?


Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X


Posted By : stringtapper - 10/13/2016 12:52 AM
www.steinberg.net/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&g=0&t=1476365022&hash=b5a4d0d5f460019016704b9c391b4def80d14203&file=fileadmin/files/PRODUCTS/Dorico/Downloads/Dorico_Feature_Overview_20161010.pdf


2.9 GHz i5 27" iMac 8GB 10.10.1 / 2.5 GHz i7 17" MacBook Pro 16GB 10.10.1 / Finale 2014d / GPO4 / Kontakt 5 / Logic Pro 10.0.7


Posted By : nordensten - 10/13/2016 4:06 AM
Shnootre said...

I could live without most of that, but not the limited support for third party virtual insts. It sounded to me like they were going to support most libraries; is that PDF publicly available?


It has been clearly stated that they will (in the not too distant future) support wellbehaved VST2's, like Kontakt and Play, but not in version 1 apparently. It's a bit like launching a new Ferrari with bicycle tyres... :)


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5)
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB


Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 10/13/2016 4:12 AM
$299 is a bit stiff for a crossgrade. Finale's crossgrade price is $149. Sibelius crossgrade price is £178.80 (so probably $199). I would hope to see some really good introductory offers, if they want to get reasonable uptake and develop a user-base.


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk


Posted By : nordensten - 10/13/2016 4:53 AM
Don't forget that Steinberg is a german company :) They did say though (on the VI-C forum) that the final prices were to be announced on launch day...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5)
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB


Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 10/13/2016 11:32 AM
Michel R. E. said...
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??

Then I'll never try it. There's no F***ing way I am installing that monstrosity that is Windows 10.



You may be interested in reading through this? /www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=102904


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.2, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)


Posted By : Motet - 10/13/2016 2:40 PM
I'm excited to see what Dorico is like, but I will wait a year or so before considering switching.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : EscapeNote - 10/13/2016 6:28 PM
I will be among the first in line to check out Dorico. Even considering there are still many features - chord slashes, etc - to be implemented, I will happily buy into v1, patiently wait for the updates and continue doing my professional work in Finale during the transition.

I've been with Finale for almost 3 decades! In all that time I've become quite adept a creating workarounds to get things done and I've kept holding out hope that "the next upgrade will really be an improvement".

But every update still feels cumbersome and like it's years behind where it should be.

Take for instance this forum: I can't simply highlight a word and then select "I" above for italics. That's the way it's done in pretty much every other online forum I've encountered. Instead, if I really want to italicize a word, I need to type the brackets and insert small letter "i" in them, before and after the word I want to italicize, making sure to include the slash before the final bracket after the word. I learned how to accomplish this small task - with 8 steps instead of 2 - by reading the "mCode Help" above the posting window.

That is consistent with my overall experience of working in Finale.

I am thrilled at the promise of a music notation software with a more intuitive workflow and with playback/sequencing capabilities that are consistent with modern music production. It seems to me like Steinberg are on the right track. I hope they will fully commit, get it right and hang in there for the long term. If so, I'll be happily making the transition.


Finale 2014.d
MacPro (Late 2013)
16 GB RAM
OS X 10.10.4
Garritan JABB, Ivory American Grand Pianos, Embertone, BFD3, Mach V, Pro Tools, Reason...


Posted By : nordensten - 10/14/2016 4:53 AM
I think the release of Dorico will be a great inspiration for Makemusic.

As seasoned Finale users know, Sibelius was never a real threat in terms of advanced engraving capabilities. Eventually, in the short to medium term, Dorico will be, provided Steinberg continues to pump millions into its development. After more than three years of design and coding, Steinberg obviously have put great pressure on the Dorico team to come up with a release. As has been openly communicated on the Dorico forum, this first release lacks a lot of basic functionality. Functionality that every seasoned Finale user will take for granted in a notation program. No chords, no first and second endings, no big time signatures, very convoluted playback, no MIDI out etc.

Also, the Steinberg marketing people have manged to release several illustrations containing notational errors. Personally I think there is a slight chance that Dorico may flop because of the premature release. If they play their cards right, Makemusic now has a chance to really improve Finale IMHO...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5)
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

Post Edited (nordensten) : 10/14/2016 3:56:14 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 10/14/2016 8:27 AM
EscapeNote said...
Take for instance this forum: I can't simply highlight a word and then select "I" above for italics. That's the way it's done in pretty much every other online forum I've encountered.

Admitted, the forum software is old and no longer available or upgradeable.  I know this is the Mac side of the forum, but I believe it was designed for a Windows environment using IE.  I have to put makemusic.com in "Tools/Compatibility View settings" before IE11 works as intended.  Once that is done, the forum acts as a WYSIWYG editor where you can do exactly what you describe, as well as many more editing features with the button/tool bars.  The editor will have an active link in the upper left corner just above the Emoticons where you can toggle between "Standard Form", the non-WYSIWYG way, and "Advanced Form", the WYSIWYG way.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 10586)
 
3.50 gigahertz Intel Core i7-5930K, Multi-core (6 total), Hyper-threaded (12 total)
32638 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory, 17514.37 Gigabytes Usable Hard Drive Capacity
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 - 4GB [Display adapter]
ASUS Rampage V Extreme motherboard, Realtek HD Audio

Finale 2014.5.6359
Garritan GPO4.02


Cakewalk SONAR X3 - (X3e build 244) - x64, Sound Forge Audio Studio 10.0, Audacity 2.1.0
Sharpeye 2.68, PhotoScore Ultimate 7.0.2, SmartScore X2 Pro 10.5.8

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell


Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 10/14/2016 8:40 AM
The trouble is that the forum contains a vast amount of useful information (though the signal to noise ratio at times can be high... :p ). Trying to import the old posts to a new database might be a ridiculous task, so they would have to draw a line under it and start again.

The same could be said for Finale itself. One of the biggest problems for future development is the need to open legacy files correctly.


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 10/14/2016 12:14 PM
Michel R. E. said...
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??

Then I'll never try it. There's no F***ing way I am installing that monstrosity that is Windows 10.

So what? If that's really the requirement, then you don't get to use the application. Get over it—there's no issue here.

Mac and PC users have been facing this for decades. Insisting that you won't use something because you can't might get you some sympathy but, in the end, you are just howling in the wind.

I agree that Windows 10 is to be avoided. One of the many reasons I prefer the Mac—even when my day job insisted I use Win.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 10/14/2016 12:18 PM
As to the topic, Dorico will have to bring a lot to the table to get me as a customer.

I'll try the demo when there is one but, right now, I can't see anything that interests me.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/14/2016 12:30 PM
MikeHalloran said...
Michel R. E. said...
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??

Then I'll never try it. There's no F***ing way I am installing that monstrosity that is Windows 10.

So what? If that's really the requirement, then you don't get to use the application. Get over it—there's no issue here.

Mac and PC users have been facing this for decades. Insisting that you won't use something because you can't might get you some sympathy but, in the end, you are just howling in the wind.

I agree that Windows 10 is to be avoided. One of the many reasons I prefer the Mac—even when my day job insisted I use Win.


I've been curious and hopeful for Dorico since it was announced years ago.

But I'm wondering what gives you the right to ridicule my opinion.
"Get over it"?

I didn't post to elicit "sympathy". I posted because it's a potential client issue that directly affects me - a potential buyer of the product, and it reflects on the marketability of the product. limiting it to the very latest OS, one which is heavily criticized and contentious, isn't - in my opinion (which was what I was emitting here) - the smartest move by Steinberg.

I notice that you yourself posted an "I won't use it, it doesn't interest me" post of your own.
How about a "who cares" as a retort?


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : nordensten - 10/14/2016 12:47 PM
Michel R. E. said...
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??


The official sysreq is W10, but, although no guarantees are given, they claim it should run on W7 SP1 and W8.1 - PROVIDED the latest incarnation of the Microsoft .NET Framework (4.6.2) is installed. They have apparently employed between 100 and 200 beta testers, and I find it puzzling that they haven't checked this out in more detail. Especially taken the somewhat convoluted authorization scheme into account. After all it's no big secret that a very high percentage of music professionals still swear by W7.


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5)
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB


Posted By : Motet - 10/14/2016 11:09 PM
Dr. Wiggy said...
The trouble is that the forum contains a vast amount of useful information (though the signal to noise ratio at times can be high... :p ). Trying to import the old posts to a new database might be a ridiculous task, so they would have to draw a line under it and start again.

I used to be in the forums software business. Importing old posts is not rocket science.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Vaughan - 10/17/2016 5:17 AM
MikeHalloran said...
As to the topic, Dorico will have to bring a lot to the table to get me as a customer.
I'll try the demo when there is one but, right now, I can't see anything that interests me.

You should look at Dorico's comprehensive list of features, many of which are either impossible in Finale or which require extensive, time-consuming workarounds. While it looks as though Dorico will be just as flexible as Finale is, its defaults have been determined by people who have an extensive knowledge of correct engraving rules. Finale's kind of tabula-rasa flexibility plus its often poor defaults results in many scores which are full of glaring notational errors and ugly engraving, both of which can make the music unnecessarily difficult and unpleasant to read. I'm having to put up with this at the moment: one of the pieces I'm studying has obviously been set in Finale and it's full of badly notated durations, collisions, bad enharmonisations, poor defaults like ledger lines which are just as thin as the staff lines and are very difficult to read, messy placement of objects, etc. Sure, it's possible to do all of this well in Finale but it takes extensive time, knowledge and dedication, most of which are frequently in short supply. Editions like this are far from the exception and, sadly, many musicians have simply become used to seeing and accepting them. I'm hoping that Dorico will start to help this situation.

Take a look at this list of Dorico's features and tell me if you really can't see anything that interests you!
www.steinberg.net/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&g=0&t=1476696447&hash=e897155c82fe19c9b450e2461441cd577509dbf9&file=fileadmin/files/PRODUCTS/Dorico/Downloads/Dorico_Feature_Overview_20161010.pdf


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/17/2016 8:49 AM
The link seems to have changed. This one works:

http://www.steinberg.net/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&g=0&t=1476798246&hash=f5fc7f3dbb5bd277a7e7b9dba27eaed6b4c63827&file=fileadmin/files/PRODUCTS/Dorico/Downloads/Dorico_Feature_Overview_20161010.pdf


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : michelp - 10/17/2016 8:55 AM
I didn't see anybody mentioning the live presentation on Youtube and Facebook on Oct. 18.
Here is the Youtube link /www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEU8v_vV1aE


Michel
Finale 2014.5, 2012c (main), MacOsX 10.11.6, Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express, 3 monitors.


Posted By : Vaughan - 10/17/2016 9:12 AM
Thank you, John, for posting the right link.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : Vaughan - 10/17/2016 9:15 AM
And yes, I'm curious to see the live presentation tomorrow evening.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 10/17/2016 10:20 AM
Vaughan said...
MikeHalloran said...
As to the topic, Dorico will have to bring a lot to the table to get me as a customer.
I'll try the demo when there is one but, right now, I can't see anything that interests me.

You should look at Dorico's comprehensive list of features, many of which are either impossible in Finale or which require extensive, time-consuming workarounds. While it looks as though Dorico will be just as flexible as Finale is, its defaults have been determined by people who have an extensive knowledge of correct engraving rules. Finale's kind of tabula-rasa flexibility plus its often poor defaults results in many scores which are full of glaring notational errors and ugly engraving, both of which can make the music unnecessarily difficult and unpleasant to read. I'm having to put up with this at the moment: one of the pieces I'm studying has obviously been set in Finale and it's full of badly notated durations, collisions, bad enharmonisations, poor defaults like ledger lines which are just as thin as the staff lines and are very difficult to read, messy placement of objects, etc. Sure, it's possible to do all of this well in Finale but it takes extensive time, knowledge and dedication, most of which are frequently in short supply. Editions like this are far from the exception and, sadly, many musicians have simply become used to seeing and accepting them. I'm hoping that Dorico will start to help this situation.

Take a look at this list of Dorico's features and tell me if you really can't see anything that interests you!
www.steinberg.net/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&g=0&t=1476696447&hash=e897155c82fe19c9b450e2461441cd577509dbf9&file=fileadmin/files/PRODUCTS/Dorico/Downloads/Dorico_Feature_Overview_20161010.pdf
You make a lot of assumptions for a product that, till Wednesday, exists only in press releases. I've been burned many times over the last 31 years since I bought my first Mac.

Since, based on those same press releases, Dorico cannot yet do things I need, I can't see myself buying it at release. For what I do, it's in the Stone Age.

I will demo it when that becomes available. I demo all notation software but still haven't found anything that works as well for me as Encore and Finale. Overture and Notion come close but have note entry issues that get in my way. MuseScore is useless. I will spend money on anything that improves my productivity—it doesn't appear that Dorico will do this.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

Post Edited (MikeHalloran) : 10/17/2016 9:23:33 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Jeremy Levy - 10/17/2016 1:17 PM
I wouldn't count on switching to Dorico on day 1 for anyone that is currently using notation software professionally. It is shaping up to be a great program, but the initial release may prove underwhelming after all the buildup. There is still a lot of work to be done. I have faith it will get there, but it's going to take some time. I'll be very curious to see what sort of response it gets from the public.

If you're interested, now will be a great time to either try the demo, or jump in while the cross grade prices are affordable. But, if you're currently working on a project, I would advise against thinking you'll be able to jump right in.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.11.6


Posted By : Zoots - 10/17/2016 3:27 PM
You are certainly correct about that, Jeremy.

I think the "not full featured" release is being offered to stir some interest and to calm those people following Spreadbury's blog who are clamoring for a release.

Offering something that is limited may cause comments about it being no good but anybody who has followed the blog will know that there is a lot of up-front effort going into Dorico to ensure it is going to get a lot of things right, including fine details.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need


Posted By : EscapeNote - 10/17/2016 4:00 PM
Hey, Zoots, would you mind posting a link to the Spreadbury blog you mentioned? I'd like to check it out. Or just point me in the right direction.


Finale 2014.d
MacPro (Late 2013)
16 GB RAM
OS X 10.10.4
Garritan JABB, Ivory American Grand Pianos, Embertone, BFD3, Mach V, Pro Tools, Reason...


Posted By : Knut - 10/17/2016 4:13 PM
EscapeNote said...
Hey, Zoots, would you mind posting a link to the Spreadbury blog you mentioned? I'd like to check it out. Or just point me in the right direction.


blog.steinberg.net


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Vaughan - 10/17/2016 5:49 PM
MikeHalloran said...
You make a lot of assumptions for a product that, till Wednesday, exists only in press releases...

For the past three years I've been following the development of the program closely and have even occasionally contributed comments and criticisms to Dorico's development team. In Daniel Spreadbury's blog, he has been quite open about the ideas behind and the problems involved in creating such a complex piece of software. Naturally it's still a product in development but I'm quite confident in what has already been produced and, especially, in what is still to come. You can call those assumptions if you like, but they are based on several years of intense scrutiny.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : Flint - 10/17/2016 7:35 PM
Michel R. E. said...
Wait, it now says in the system requirements that it needs 64 bit Windows 10??

Then I'll never try it. There's no F***ing way I am installing that monstrosity that is Windows 10.


My only complaint (other than a few Who Moved My Cheese moments) is that Windows 10 bricked my HP printer. :-p

As for D*****, it really depends on how easily you can edit things. All the blog entries I read so far seem to indicate that it's really mouse-intensive, and with no indication of note-entry methods.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
 


Posted By : Gary the T - 10/17/2016 8:27 PM
Count me among those who are interested in checking it out.


Mobile: 17" MBP (2.66 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB RAM, 10.10.5), True Systems Precision 8, MH LIO-8
Home: Mac Pro (2x2.4 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Westmere", 32 GB RAM; 10.10.5; boot drive 960 GB Mercury Accelsior_E2 PCIe card), OMNI, MH ULN-2, MOTU 8pre
PT HDN 12.6; REAPER 5+ (32 & 64-bit); PreSonus Studio One 3 Pro, Central Station Plus, and FaderPort
WAY too many plugins and VIs; Sound Forge Pro; WaveLab 8.5
Finale 2014d


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 10/17/2016 11:44 PM
Vaughan said...
MikeHalloran said...
You make a lot of assumptions for a product that, till Wednesday, exists only in press releases...

For the past three years I've been following the development of the program closely and have even occasionally contributed comments and criticisms to Dorico's development team. In Daniel Spreadbury's blog, he has been quite open about the ideas behind and the problems involved in creating such a complex piece of software. Naturally it's still a product in development but I'm quite confident in what has already been produced and, especially, in what is still to come. You can call those assumptions if you like, but they are based on several years of intense scrutiny.
but no hands on experience.

Let's save all the 'how wonderful this will be' nonsense till after it has been released and people are actually using it. Since I won't be able to knock a simple lead sheet in it, I am reserving my judgement till after they've made a few updates and I've had a chance to demo it.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4


Posted By : Motet - 10/18/2016 12:30 AM
From what I've seen, the Spreadbury blog has focused on the fine points of music typesetting and appearance, but what will make or break the program is ease of use (including music entry--not Sibelius's strong suit) and robustness.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 10/18/2016 12:58 PM
Motet said...
From what I've seen, the Spreadbury blog has focused on the fine points of music typesetting and appearance, but what will make or break the program is ease of use (including music entry--not Sibelius's strong suit) and robustness.
On that point we agree completely.

I'm not in the engraving business. My goal is to have my charts read easily by the musicians who will play them. To make that happen, I have to get the notes down and lay them out. Encore is easiest for me with Finale close behind. Encore doesn't look very good and there are many layout functions it cannot handle. That's what Finale is for.

Once Dorico can do what I need, I will check it out but, if I can't knock out my charts easily, it will be useless to me.

The latest versions of Oversure and Notion were released in the last few weeks. I've already disqualified Notion because note entry takes too many mouse clicks. I haven't looked at the latest Overture 5.1 yet but will in a few days—5.02 was not ready for prime time.

I have lost count of the number of notation programs I've owned over the years. Like everyone, I'm looking for the app that gets it looking the way I want as easily as possible. Easy is my preference.


Finale 25, 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4


Posted By : N. Grossingink - 10/18/2016 2:35 PM
Dorico release event streaming live NOW

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_hOJ7KSx_k

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale


Posted By : Shnootre - 10/18/2016 5:28 PM
Well, when it comes to layout and elegance of design, color me VERY impressed. I can't even imagine not spending hours and hours on fixing Finale formatting? What would I even do with that time? (probably think of something).

Seems like Playback will be quite limited in the early going, which surprising considering it's Steinberg. But also seems like they are set on doing it right, and I really like the vision for the whole thing. Now I'm curious about what the reality will be like.

Hopefully the "real" price they announce tomorrow will be lower than the originally announced price. Their crossgrade price - especially with zero track record - should be in line with Finale and Sibelius at the very most.


Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X


Posted By : Motet - 10/18/2016 5:45 PM
I hope the sound syncs better with Dorico playback than that Youtube video--unwatchable!


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/18/2016 6:06 PM
Maybe a very minor details, but I hated the endpoints on those slurs.

Sadly, when he started talking about playback, it suddenly became "blah blah blah"... I had no idea what he was saying.
I've never used a sequencer before, and when he opened that playback window with filters and EQ and GLSKJECNUIDCOIJDS and all sorts of other things that may as well be Klingon to me, he just lost me.
Hopefully, one day the program will work without you having to resort to that anti-musical interface.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Jeremy Levy - 10/18/2016 6:17 PM
Michel,

Therein lies the problem with music notation and music technology. I talked to Daniel about this in detail last year. Their goal is to try to hit a happy middle point between Sibelius' handling of soundsets (that work out of the box, but are VERY hard to edit and customize) and a full DAW (full customizability, but complex). They've made it so that you can avoid using that stuff and just write music, but if you want to use complex sample libraries, you'll eventually be able to fully use them.

FYI, when you load up a new template or create new instruments, it automatically loads up all the required sounds from it's orchestra library. So, you really don't have to worry about it unless you want to change something.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.11.6


Posted By : EscapeNote - 10/18/2016 6:35 PM
Different strokes for different folks! Playback is VERY important to me. I spend half my time in Finale and the other half in Pro Tools. In my experience - in the circles I work in - it's expected that I be able to give clients a reasonably decent sounding mockup of an arrangement. I find that this can often lead to better end results and better compensation for my hard work. It is very tedious having to swap the same music back and forth between DAW and Finale - doing one for quality of playback, the other for quality of notation.

But that's just me. IMHO, one of the great things about music is that there are so many ways to go about it. Many of us have different systems for being productive and creative. For some, Finale gets it done just right.

I wish I could have watched the entire stream today, but had to get back to working in Finale and finish charting on a deadline! But what I saw impressed me mightily - I'll be purchasing Dorico tomorrow, no doubt.


Finale 2014.d
MacPro (Late 2013)
16 GB RAM
OS X 10.10.4
Garritan JABB, Ivory American Grand Pianos, Embertone, BFD3, Mach V, Pro Tools, Reason...


Posted By : SF - 10/18/2016 10:51 PM
Michel said...
Maybe a very minor details, but I hated the endpoints on those slurs.
The endpoints are easily changeable.

SF


MPB 17" 3Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8GB, 10.6.8 and 10.11.6
MacPro (mid 2010) 2.8 Ghz Qual-Core Intel Xeon, 16GB, 10.8.5, 10.11.6, 10.12 Three 27" Apple Displays
Finale 2.6.3-->25, Sib. 3.0-->7.5, Logic X, QuicKeys 4.0.7, DoubleCommand DoubleCommand, Mouse Locator Mouse Locator


Posted By : Shnootre - 10/19/2016 9:57 AM
Crossgrade price out today - it's $279. Too rich for me to be a beta tester of the 1.0 version, but I'll await the free trial (available next month, supposedly), and initial reports.


Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X


Posted By : Shnootre - 10/19/2016 9:59 AM
Um, as I was saying: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/dorico-is-this-a-joke.56651/


Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X


Posted By : EscapeNote - 10/19/2016 7:55 PM
For all the work that it takes to develop a product like this, bring it to market, make good on the promises (the critical features yet to be added) and support it in the future, 280 bucks strikes me as a very fair price. Notation software is a tool I use to make my living. I would rather pay a little more for quality tools than get strung along by bargain prices and the hassle of dealing with tools that constantly need repairing and require workarounds to get the jobs done.

Of course this is me talking without yet having worked with Dorico. I hope I'll still be singing the same tune after I've worked with the program for awhile :)

Bottom line: if it measures up to the promises, then I'm definitely OK with buying in at 280 bucks!


Finale 2014.d
MacPro (Late 2013)
16 GB RAM
OS X 10.10.4
Garritan JABB, Ivory American Grand Pianos, Embertone, BFD3, Mach V, Pro Tools, Reason...


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/19/2016 3:00 PM
$280... plus VAT... which makes it closer to $350


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Mike Halloran - 10/19/2016 3:24 PM
Shnootre said...
Um, as I was saying: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/dorico-is-this-a-joke.56651/
Live link vi-control.net/community/threads/dorico-is-this-a-joke.56651/

EscapeNote said...
For all the work that it takes to develop a product like this, bring it to market, make good on the promises (the critical features yet to be added) and support it in the future, 280 bucks strikes me as a very fair price. Notation software is a tool I use to make my living. I would rather pay a little more for quality tools than get strung along by bargain prices and the hassle of dealing with tools that constantly need repairing and require workarounds to get the jobs done.

Of course this is me talking without yet having worked with Dorico. I hope I'll still be singing the same tune after I've worked with the program for awhile :)

Bottom line: if it measures up to the promises, then I'm definitely OK with buying in at 280 bucks!


Big "if". The price is not my issue but nearly everything else is.

The overall "look" is impressive but Dorico appears like it's aimed at engraving which is not my need. Still not for me—at least not yet.

I did decide that trying to evaluate it before the tools that I need are added is a waste of my time, however, so I am thankful for that in any case.


Mike Halloran

Finale 25 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
G4 running OS 10.4.11 & 9.2 with legacy apps

Post Edited (Mike Halloran) : 10/19/2016 2:33:50 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Vaughan - 10/19/2016 3:34 PM
Michel R. E. said...
$280... plus VAT... which makes it closer to $350

I thought it was including VAT, at least, that's the case here.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : EscapeNote - 10/20/2016 2:59 PM
Michel R. E. said...
$280... plus VAT... which makes it closer to $350


Just FYI, I purchased Dorico. Total cost 279, as advertised - no VAT.


Finale 2014.d
MacPro (Late 2013)
16 GB RAM
OS X 10.10.4
Garritan JABB, Ivory American Grand Pianos, Embertone, BFD3, Mach V, Pro Tools, Reason...


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/20/2016 4:04 PM
EscapeNote said...
Michel R. E. said...
$280... plus VAT... which makes it closer to $350


Just FYI, I purchased Dorico. Total cost 279, as advertised - no VAT.


I only got as far as getting the product into my purchase basket, but the price had jumped from $279 to $340+ somewhere in there.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 10/20/2016 4:13 PM
Michel R. E. said...
EscapeNote said...
Michel R. E. said...
$280... plus VAT... which makes it closer to $350


Just FYI, I purchased Dorico. Total cost 279, as advertised - no VAT.


I only got as far as getting the product into my purchase basket, but the price had jumped from $279 to $340+ somewhere in there.


Michel lives in Canada I believe? Maybe that is why it's so much more for him than you?


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.2, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, Notion 5 (Notion 5 not really any better than 4, [Notion 6 (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)


Posted By : Zoots - 10/20/2016 4:16 PM
The $279 is USD. In my case the cost jumps to $348 Cdn. Way back somewhere I thought I noticed you were in Montreal????


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/20/2016 4:38 PM
it doesn't specify USD or CAD.
it just has a price.
I'm used to doing the conversion in my head.

So if that is the case, then they left out one important detail in the shopping cart: that they do the conversion from USD to CAD.
All I saw was a before and after price, with no specifics.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : Fred G. Unn - 10/20/2016 9:41 PM
I've followed Dorico really closely and am quite interested in it, but from what I've read this is really alpha software. As far as notation music goes, it lacks so many features I'm not sure it qualifies as beta. There's a good review here: http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/dorico-is-here-a-review/?singlepage=1

Many of Dorico's higher end engraving features are really exciting, but unfortunately, as far as I've been able to discern here are some things it can't do:

No 1st & 2nd endings
No chord symbols
Individual staves are not independently adjustable vertically, other than the software's own collision avoidance feature
No cueing
No transposition. (Transposing parts correctly transpose, but you can't transpose a passage up a 3rd for example, at least according to Alexander's review linked above)
No piano pedaling
No slash notation
No fingerings

Who can use this for actual work? Certainly no one in the jazz/pop/Broadway/Film & TV fields without chord symbols, no one doing piano music without endings, fingerings, and pedaling, no one publishing orchestral music without being able to independently adjust staff positioning in a score other than the program's default, and without cueing. Who is supposed to use this? I love all the features Daniel has described on his blog, but WTH? Their tagline is "The New Gold Standard in Scoring Software," LOL! I was assuming I would just buy the crossgrade regardless of the completeness of the program as it is just v1.0, but I'm holding off as I'm not sure there's a single situation where I could use this for actual work.

Posted By : Hector Pascal - 10/20/2016 11:58 PM
While reading the review of Dorico, I was very impressed with the development of the software thus far and i liked that inputs (generally speaking) require no tweaking to achieve perfection. My plan is to assess the free trial version (which I believe may be made available in a month or so), then make a decision prior to the cross grade price evaporating at the end of March. If I do buy Dorico, I will play with it as a hobby until the program features (and my use of them) get up to work speed /work standard. Today, I felt a tiny bit promiscuous as I looked at the Dorico vital statistics lol! But Finale can rest assured that I have no plan to separate from it. I first heard of Finale in about 1985 but hand-wrote all my music until about 1998 when I found a program called Lime and started using that. I never did get to know Sibelius, but like the idea of getting in on the ground floor with Dorico.

Cheers everyone,
Hector.

Post Edited (Hector Pascal) : 10/20/2016 11:01:06 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : OCTO. - 10/21/2016 1:10 AM
I agree. Many has put faith in the new product. I just waited for the Dorico forum to be filled with questions, which reveal my suspicion what is missing and what doesn't work...
I will never buy a product if I cannot demo it, and frankly speaking, isn't it a bit strange that Steinberg doesn't refund - at the same time no demo is available?

I believe that Finale is still some light years ahead of Dorico. MM seriously needs to fix the speed on OS X and perhaps some other things (implementing plugins into the core, adding new features that facilitate input of various elements without collisions, and fix spacing - particularly optical spacing / kerning) to assure their position. If they really wish to fix that - do not work as friends at the company: after one month fire that programmers who cannot find why is Finale on OS X so slow. So functions any serious company. I will get fired if I miss deadlines with slow Finale - why don't you?

I purchased my first (and only) Sibelius as version 7, still available that time as a cross-grade. Version 7 is capable many things! But Sibelius 1 was perhaps not.
Anyway, to spend money on something unknown (as Dorico without demo - is) - that will not see me. Why do people want to struggle with unknown product when MuseScore is capable much more and for free? Why do you want to go back (from Finale and Sibelius) and to deal with a software with limited possibilities?

BTW; Dorico's start-up document with one single rest reminds me of Finale, ...from '90. Why should anyone start a piece without knowing what TS/KS are used? To feel free in what?


NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 10/21/2016 12:57:45 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : Knut - 10/21/2016 4:47 AM
Fred G. Unn said...
I've followed Dorico really closely and am quite interested in it, but from what I've read this is really alpha software. As far as notation music goes, it lacks so many features I'm not sure it qualifies as beta. There's a good review here: http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/dorico-is-here-a-review/?singlepage=1

Many of Dorico's higher end engraving features are really exciting, but unfortunately, as far as I've been able to discern here are some things it can't do:

No 1st & 2nd endings
No chord symbols
Individual staves are not independently adjustable vertically, other than the software's own collision avoidance feature
No cueing
No transposition. (Transposing parts correctly transpose, but you can't transpose a passage up a 3rd for example, at least according to Alexander's review linked above)
No piano pedaling
No slash notation
No fingerings

Who can use this for actual work? Certainly no one in the jazz/pop/Broadway/Film & TV fields without chord symbols, no one doing piano music without endings, fingerings, and pedaling, no one publishing orchestral music without being able to independently adjust staff positioning in a score other than the program's default, and without cueing. Who is supposed to use this? I love all the features Daniel has described on his blog, but WTH? Their tagline is "The New Gold Standard in Scoring Software," LOL! I was assuming I would just buy the crossgrade regardless of the completeness of the program as it is just v1.0, but I'm holding off as I'm not sure there's a single situation where I could use this for actual work.


In it's present condition, Dorico's tagline is indeed very presumptuous, but then again, marketing almost always is, and I doubt that the developers had anything to do with it (not that you did imply such a thing).

However, deeming Dorico as 'alpha software' seems a bit petty and equally presumptuous to me, especially if you haven't actually used the software and choose to focus entirely on features which absence has been announced in advance through several channels, and most of which are supposed to be implemented in free updates in the coming weeks and months.

Of course, with regard to basic features, Finale undoubtedly has the upper hand by far, but then again it has been in continued development and produced a steady revenue stream for almost 30 years. That is a very long time compared to Dorico's four years in development with no revenue until now. Disregarding the things you can't yet do in Dorico, the program's automatically generated output is simply unparalleled by any other program, and so are many of the features which actually made the initial release.

I am assuming that there is a certain amount of thought and research behind the order of feature implementation in Dorico. Even if many users won't be able to use the program for actual work yet, keep in mind that there is such a thing as music without repeat endings, chord symbols or fingerings. And even if the program is more or less useless to all professional engravers in it's present condition, we are a niche market representing only a small part of Dorico's potential user base, and very few of us would make the transition to a new program immediately anyway.

Considering the number of times I've seemingly paid to be a betatester for Finale over the years, it's not that hard for me to at least give Dorico the benefit of the doubt and look forward to the continued development of Dorico with great anticipation. At least the early release gives me a head start on getting to know the software so that I'm able to use it efficiently once it's ready for work.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Vaughan - 10/21/2016 6:03 AM
Well said, Knut!

OCTO. said...
BTW; Dorico's start-up document with one single rest reminds me of Finale, ...from '90. Why should anyone start a piece without knowing what TS/KS are used? To feel free in what?

That's the whole point. You don't have to. I would imagine that the ability to compose music without the constrains of TS/KS would appeal to a lot of composers. Dorico has the ability to 'pour' notes and motives into a TS/KS framework after the fact, something which is much more difficult in Finale (or Sibelius). Take a look at the review. There are some good examples of how this can work to your advantage, whether composing or copying.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : Vaughan - 10/21/2016 6:19 AM
What I also find annoying and disconcerting: someone jumps into using the software without reading the manual (because it's only online and not printed) and is unable to do certain basic things (which are possible but need looking up), and then posts on a forum that Dorico is worthless. Even worse, most of the readers of the forum immediately took these premature comments at face value and reacted with indignation at how worthless Dorico is. Welcome to humanity!
It's fun to read some of the comments after the above-mentioned review. 'It is very disappointing that Dorico will not play Sibelius scores. So I shall not buy it!' This is one of the things software developers have to put up with. One response: 'It is very disappointing that my diesel car doesn’t run on gasoline.' So on it goes...


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : David Ward - 10/21/2016 7:28 AM
Can one watch the YouTube Dorico presentation retrospectively? I can't seem to get to it via any of the links in this thread.

I expect I'll give the Dorico demo a try in due course, but having struggled since 2001 to half-way (no more) master Finale, it'll take a lot for me to abandon it, however frustrating it often is. Depending on developments, though, I might find myself recommending student composers adopt Dorico, especially if they are currently using Sibelius (as here in the UK, almost all students are).


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK


Posted By : Fred G. Unn - 10/21/2016 7:28 AM
Knut said...

However, deeming Dorico as 'alpha software' seems a bit petty and equally presumptuous to me, especially if you haven't actually used the software and choose to focus entirely on features which absence has been announced in advance through several channels, and most of which are supposed to be implemented in free updates in the coming weeks and months.
...
Even if many users won't be able to use the program for actual work yet, keep in mind that there is such a thing as music without repeat endings, chord symbols or fingerings.


I'm being honest here, what genre of music doesn't use those things? Church hymnal style choir music certainly, but what else? Classroom exercises for students? Much choral music will need endings. Essential elements of musical notation are missing in virtually every genre of music I can think of. In it's current state of development, I think "alpha software" is a fairly honest assessment. It's music publishing software that can't actually be used to publish music, so what else do you call it?

Obviously as the demo isn't yet available I have yet to actually try it, and I'm still fairly optimistic about its potential in the future, but by releasing it so unfinished, I think they have made a huge error in judgement. I understand it has been 4 years in development and Steinberg is ready to have a revenue stream from their investment, but first impressions and initial reviews will stick around for a long time. I certainly couldn't recommend anyone purchase it currently.

The argument some are making that Finale 1.0 wasn't full featured either, doesn't really seem to be valid to me either. Finale (and Encore, the old Acorn version of Sibelius, etc) basically were inventing the field of WYSIWYG music notation software. I've been a user since Fin2.3 and can remember looking up the clef codes in a huge printed manual, so I have no illusions about early versions of Finale, but the music notation software market is now fairly mature. Finale and Sibelius certainly aren't perfect, but they are both excellent and usable options to publish music. Anyone trying to crack into this relatively small market must give users a reason to spend their money. All of the things mentioned that are missing from Dorico 1.0 are things any reasonable person would expect a new music notation program to be able to do.

Posted By : Knut - 10/21/2016 8:29 AM
Fred G. Unn said...

Finale (and Encore, the old Acorn version of Sibelius, etc) basically were inventing the field of WYSIWYG music notation software. I've been a user since Fin2.3 and can remember looking up the clef codes in a huge printed manual, so I have no illusions about early versions of Finale, but the music notation software market is now fairly mature. Finale and Sibelius certainly aren't perfect, but they are both excellent and usable options to publish music. Anyone trying to crack into this relatively small market must give users a reason to spend their money. All of the things mentioned that are missing from Dorico 1.0 are things any reasonable person would expect a new music notation program to be able to do.


There's a strong case to be made that Dorico is aiming to redefine the field of computer based music notation, so I actually think it's entirely appropriate to show them similar leniency. This is certainly the reason why many of the features you're asking for wasn't in the initial release. For example, in the case of chord symbols, the Dorico developers clearly aren't content with simply copying the functionality of Finale or Sibelius. They want to take an entirely different (and hopefully much better) approach. If this is the road taken for every single feature in Dorico (and the first release certainly feels like it), building a scoring application becomes a monumental task pretty fast.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Wess - 10/21/2016 2:45 PM
Hi there,

can one help posting a link to Dorico PDF DEMO-samples?
I searched Google and could not find anything.

Thank you


Finale 2014 and earlier...
________________________________________
iMac 27" (late 2013) i7-3.50GHz, Nvidia 775 2GB, 24 GB RAM, 1 TB Fusion drive. Mavericks 10.9.2
External A+B: 1TB SSD Samsung EVO 840 + 4 TB WD Black (Thunderbolt/USB3 enclosure)
External C: 2TB WD via FireWire800 (Thunderbolt-FireWire 800 adapter)
Second monitor: HP LP2475w (Thunderbolt-HDMI cable)

Macbook pro 17" (2009) 2.80 GHz, RAM 8 GB, 500GB SSD Samsung EVO 840

MIDI: hybride piano
YAMAHA Avant Grand N1

CUSTOM MUSC FONTS & SAMPLES – VintageGHMA (Henle) & VintageECP1 (Peter's)


Posted By : Dave Lang - 10/21/2016 2:49 PM
re: statements above - the Dorico team seems more interested in changing how we notate music than giving us tools to notate music the way we want to. I suspect the first version of chord symbols will analyze the music and decide for you what the chord is, denying you the ability to change that. I don't think this approach will survive long in the wild. Who knows.


MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.6, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/21/2016 3:03 PM
One important detail that's missing for me so far in all the praise and hoopla about how wonderful and ground-breaking Doritos is, I have yet to see an orchestral score done with it.

So far we can't do cues, so it's pointless for me to buy the program until at least that part is available.

But I've also only seen 2-3 staff examples, nothing that's actually really challenging to engrave.

They've gone out of their way to show how it can handle multiple voices (ie: more than 4) on a single staff, which is something few of us will ever really have to contend with.
And yet, still no simple orchestral score with the spacing difficulties inherent to that type of music engraving.

I've had very little trouble so far handling relatively complex keyboard notation without the aide of Doritos' "ground-breaking paradigm shifting" new way of defining elements on a staff. I don't need to think of an 8va symbol as a clef. I just need it to work, and I need to be able to add it easily, naturally, without going through 12 menus to find it.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."


Posted By : N. Grossingink - 10/21/2016 3:29 PM
Dave Lang said...
I suspect the first version of chord symbols will analyze the music and decide for you what the chord is, denying you the ability to change that.


I doubt that. If by some chance they do pull off this miracle, they're sure to offer strictly manual input for those that prefer it. If not sooner, then later.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale


Posted By : Motet - 10/21/2016 3:45 PM
Skimming the list of features, collision avoidance and reasonable defaults seem like the major advance for me over Finale. I waste huge amounts of time dealing with this. I realize Sibelius has collision avoidance, but MM has chosen to ignore it for years. Perhaps this will spur them into action.

In my opinion, the crossgrade price is too high, and I saw something about it being available only for a "limited time." This is a marketing mistake, I think.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Knut - 10/21/2016 3:48 PM
Dave Lang said...
re: statements above - the Dorico team seems more interested in changing how we notate music than giving us tools to notate music the way we want to. I suspect the first version of chord symbols will analyze the music and decide for you what the chord is, denying you the ability to change that. I don't think this approach will survive long in the wild. Who knows.


Which statements above are you basing this statement on, if I may ask? Surely none of us who have actually used the program has given you any reason to assume such a thing.

Michel R. E. said...
One important detail that's missing for me so far in all the praise and hoopla about how wonderful and ground-breaking Doritos is, I have yet to see an orchestral score done with it.


Some minor orchestral excerpts have been used to demonstrate certain spects, but so long as the feature set is limited, it goes without saying that these cannot be very complex. Besides, Dorico has been out for only 3 days, so I'm sure that more will come.

Michel R. E. said...
I've had very little trouble so far handling relatively complex keyboard notation without the aide of Doritos' "ground-breaking paradigm shifting" new way of defining elements on a staff. I don't need to think of an 8va symbol as a clef. I just need it to work, and I need to be able to add it easily, naturally, without going through 12 menus to find it.


Statements like these leave me a bit bewildered; if you really are that content with the present situation, why are you even considering buying Dorico when cue notes or any other features you may need are eventually implemented? Seems to me you're much better off sticking to what works for you, instead of spending your time learning an entirely new program.

I don't think any of us who have used Finale professionally for years will be happy with Dorico unless it is able to deliver at least equally good results. Personally I'm not of the opinion that total flexibility to do whatever you want, however you want, whenever you want it is the be-all and end-all of professional scoring software. To me, it all depends on the quality of the automatic output, combined with the flexibility to edit manually if (and only if) necessary.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Fred G. Unn - 10/21/2016 4:31 PM
Someone on the Dorico forum used a car analogy, and I think it's actually pretty appropriate. When Tesla cars first hit the market, they couldn't brag about their 0-60 speed, but then not mention that there's no reverse, so you have to switch to neutral and get out and push if you want to go backwards. Or tout all the amazing tech in them, but then not have air conditioning. (Or then say "hey this is model 1.0, the Ford Model T didn't have air conditioning either.") No, if it is on the market in 2016 and priced alongside full-featured programs ($559), there are some basic, fundamental aspects of music notation that it should be able to handle if it wants any chance in the market. The beaming, slurs, collision avoidance, accidental placement on chords, spacing, etc. are all very cool and some are groundbreaking features, but none of it matters if this program can't actually be used to produce music.

I'm ok with the lack of chord symbols if they made the decision that they were going to make this the premiere program for engraving orchestral music (or choral, or some other genre) and focused all their attention there, but it appears they made compromises everywhere. No repeat endings, no independently adjustable staves other than their own collision avoidance algorithm (Daniel confirmed this over on the Dorico forum), no pedaling, etc. means it can't really be used for any genre at this stage. If Dorico begins to make any sort of dent in the market, I'm sure the marketing departments of MM and Avid will both be sure to point out all the basic features of notation that it can't handle. I know nothing about the finances and budget of this project, but it seems like they fell short of their development timeline and Steinberg is forcing them to rush out an unfinished product.

Posted By : Knut - 10/21/2016 5:59 PM
Wess said...
Hi there,

can one help posting a link to Dorico PDF DEMO-samples?
I searched Google and could not find anything.

Thank you


I've made one here: notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210&start=10#p3472

Fred G. Unn said...
Someone on the Dorico forum used a car analogy, and I think it's actually pretty appropriate. When Tesla cars first hit the market, they couldn't brag about their 0-60 speed, but then not mention that there's no reverse, so you have to switch to neutral and get out and push if you want to go backwards. Or tout all the amazing tech in them, but then not have air conditioning. (Or then say "hey this is model 1.0, the Ford Model T didn't have air conditioning either.")


And yet another Tesla analogy on the Dorico forum reads:

Bear in mind that Tesla came to the car market with Autopilot technology, but you still need a driving licence to drive a Tesla, and it can't yet drive 500 miles without stopping for literally hours to recharge. People are still happy to pay £50k+ for a Tesla, because it's closer to the future than anything else we've got. Dorico's not so different...

The decision by Steinberg to release an unfinished version may of course prove to be the wrong one, but given the level of openness that the development team has shown towards everyone interested in the development of the software (and who therefore are the most likely to jump on the bandwagon out the gate), somehow I doubt that it's as bad as you seem to think. Anyway, I personally see no reason to complain as long as I can continue to use Finale until Dorico is ready for serious use.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Fred G. Unn - 10/21/2016 7:22 PM
Knut said...
Anyway, I personally see no reason to complain as long as I can continue to use Finale until Dorico is ready for serious use.


You're right of course. I just had high expectations and was ready to fork over my $$$, but now well, not so much.

At least they are being fairly honest about what it is lacking and are promising free upgrades to complete the program, at least with the following omissions:

"Dorico has many unique and innovative features not found in any other software, and presents a whole new way of working with music notation, but because it is brand new, it does not yet have every feature necessary for every kind of score. Dorico will receive a number of updates in the coming months that will be free to existing users, adding new functionality. Some of the functionality that is planned to be added in these updates includes*:

Chord symbols
Repeat ending (1st, 2nd time or volta) lines
Fingerings
Jazz articulations
Rhythm slashes
More flexible unpitched percussion notation
Improvements to playback and support for third-party virtual instruments"

Posted By : OCTO. - 10/22/2016 12:59 AM
I am totally with you, Fred G. Unn. Well said all above.


NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.


Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 10/22/2016 2:11 AM
Music notation is very difficult. Orders of magnitude more so than standard Text and graphics DTP. For every feature that "helps" by positioning elements in a certain way, there's a piece of music where it needs to be different. Many of the rules are entirely arbitrary, and for every rule there is an exception.
The same app must cope with music from Palestrina to Ferneyhough; jazz and Broadwsy shows; Wagner operas to hymn sheets.

We now have three commercial professional packages, with open source community projects like Musegraph coming up from behind. ALL of them have limitations, problems, known "issues" and idiosyncrasies. Dorito might fix many of the obstacles that Finale throws up, but I would be very surprised if it won't introduce its own.

If you want total flexibility, you might be better off emulating old-school engravers on a blank document in Illustrator or Affinity Design!

Say what you like about Finale, but if it won't do what you want automatically, you can at least do it manually. (Cue reply citing example where that's not the case :p )


Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 10/22/2016 1:16:26 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : N. Grossingink - 10/22/2016 10:52 AM
Were any members of this forum beta testers for Dorico? I know there are possibly limitations on what can be discussed, but it would be nice to hear whatever opinions you can divulge.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale


Posted By : nordensten - 10/22/2016 12:16 PM
With over 200 beta testers, I would guess most of them were fanboys. Any team developing notation software in the 21st century should be forced to sit in with a professional engraver for 2 months, a professional and prolific composer using either Finale or Sibelius for just as long, and a film/media composer using Cubase or Pro Tools for as long as necessary. Surely Steinberg cannot survive solely on a user base dedicated to producing new editions of Beethoven...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB


Posted By : Knut - 10/22/2016 9:28 AM
N. Grossingink said...
Were any members of this forum beta testers for Dorico? I know there are possibly limitations on what can be discussed, but it would be nice to hear whatever opinions you can divulge.

N.


I didn't make the cut as a beta tester, unfortunately, but I've shared some first impressions here:
notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210#p3459

Alexander Plötz's review on the Sibelius blog is also worth reading:
www.sibeliusblog.com/news/dorico-is-here-a-review/


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3

Post Edited (Knut) : 10/22/2016 8:43:14 AM (GMT-5)


Posted By : OCTO. - 10/22/2016 9:35 AM
Knut said...

I didn't make the cut as a beta tester, unfortunately, but I've shared some first impressions here:
notat.io/posting.php?mode=quote&f=7&p=3459

Correct: notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210#p3459


NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.


Posted By : Knut - 10/22/2016 9:42 AM
nordensten said...
Any team developing notation software in the 21st century should be forced to sit in with a professional engraver for 2 months, a professional and prolific composer using either Finale or Sibelius for just as long, and a film/media composer using Cubase or Pro Tools for as long as necessary.


From what I've read, Daniel and the team have had a lot of interaction with professionals of all the stripes you mention, in addition to consulting an extensive body of literature on music engraving along the way. I think it's safe to say that a majority of the music engraving community has felt their presence online for a long time, and have been able to chime in on various topics if they wanted to.

What the developers choose to do with all this information is still up for debate, but you can't say they aren't well informed.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Knut - 10/22/2016 9:44 AM
OCTO. said...
Knut said...

I didn't make the cut as a beta tester, unfortunately, but I've shared some first impressions here:
notat.io/posting.php?mode=quote&f=7&p=3459

Correct: notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210#p3459


Thanks for spotting this, OCTO.
I've updated my post as well.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Wess - 10/22/2016 10:23 AM
Knut said...
Wess said...
Hi there,

can one help posting a link to Dorico PDF DEMO-samples?
I searched Google and could not find anything.

Thank you


I've made one here: notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=210&start=10#p3472


Thank you.


Finale 2014 and earlier...
________________________________________
iMac 27" (late 2013) i7-3.50GHz, Nvidia 775 2GB, 24 GB RAM, 1 TB Fusion drive. Mavericks 10.9.2
External A+B: 1TB SSD Samsung EVO 840 + 4 TB WD Black (Thunderbolt/USB3 enclosure)
External C: 2TB WD via FireWire800 (Thunderbolt-FireWire 800 adapter)
Second monitor: HP LP2475w (Thunderbolt-HDMI cable)

Macbook pro 17" (2009) 2.80 GHz, RAM 8 GB, 500GB SSD Samsung EVO 840

MIDI: hybride piano
YAMAHA Avant Grand N1

CUSTOM MUSC FONTS & SAMPLES – VintageGHMA (Henle) & VintageECP1 (Peter's)


Posted By : N. Grossingink - 10/22/2016 11:07 AM
Thanks, Knut!

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale


Posted By : nordensten - 10/22/2016 1:36 PM
Knut said...
nordensten said...
Any team developing notation software in the 21st century should be forced to sit in with a professional engraver for 2 months, a professional and prolific composer using either Finale or Sibelius for just as long, and a film/media composer using Cubase or Pro Tools for as long as necessary.


From what I've read, Daniel and the team have had a lot of interaction with professionals of all the stripes you mention, in addition to consulting an extensive body of literature on music engraving along the way. I think it's safe to say that a majority of the music engraving community has felt their presence online for a long time, and have been able to chime in on various topics if they wanted to.

What the developers choose to do with all this information is still up for debate, but you can't say they aren't well informed.


Let me first say that, bearing all your excellent postings on the [pre-release] Dorico forum in mind, I am very surprised to learn here that you were not selected as a beta tester for Dorico. That fact may confirm my suspicion...

My point was that interaction with professionals is not enough. You actually have to sit down and watch professionals at work over time in order to collect sufficient knowledge of working habits, preferences and workflows. I have the greatest respect for Daniel Spreadbury, and the research and work he has now brought into Dorico in terms of engraving quality is outstanding. He may be a great musician too, but he's not a composer. I wish he was...

The fact that we just got Finale 25.1 is encouraging. I think it will also inspire the Dorico team to work even harder. Dorico has great potential and we shall all pray that Steinberg/Yamaha has the patience and resources to keep the team going. But software is not only about getting more beautiful output, it is also about getting the work done faster and more efficiently...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB


Posted By : Gary the T - 10/22/2016 1:36 PM
Not having the time to scour through other forums, I'm curious about one thing in particular:

How do you enter notes in Dorico? Does it accept MIDI input like Finale, or is is strictly mouse and/or computer keyboard entry? Details would be cool.


Mobile: 17" MBP (2.66 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB RAM, 10.10.5), True Systems Precision 8, MH LIO-8
Home: Mac Pro (2x2.4 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Westmere", 32 GB RAM; 10.10.5; boot drive 960 GB Mercury Accelsior_E2 PCIe card), OMNI, MH ULN-2, MOTU 8pre
PT HDN 12.6; REAPER 5+ (32 & 64-bit); PreSonus Studio One 3 Pro, Central Station Plus, and FaderPort
WAY too many plugins and VIs; Sound Forge Pro; WaveLab 8.5
Finale 2014d


Posted By : nordensten - 10/22/2016 1:44 PM
It's laptop oriented, you can enter everything using the qwerty, no keypad needed. You can also use the mouse/keypad, and you can use step time input from a Midi Keyboard. No realtime yet. System requirements are W10 or recent MacOSes, but I've used it now for 4 days on Windows 7, apparently with less problems than the W10 and Mac communities (if the Dorico forum is anything to go by...)


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB


Posted By : Fred G. Unn - 10/22/2016 3:49 PM
Knut, care to comment on any speed issues? I noticed a few people on the Dorico forum complaining about lags in processing. I figured with a brand new architecture Dorico would certainly be able to at least beat Finale in the speed department, but their complaints may be due to their own system. I was just wondering if you had experienced any significant slow downs or if it's fairly quick with large computations.

Posted By : Knut - 10/22/2016 4:32 PM
nordensten said...

Let me first say that, bearing all your excellent postings on the [pre-release] Dorico forum in mind, I am very surprised to learn here that you were not selected as a beta tester for Dorico. That fact may confirm my suspicion...


Thank you for the encouragement, but they received an enormous amount of applications, so I guess there was no shortage of qualified beta testers.

nordensten said...
My point was that interaction with professionals is not enough. You actually have to sit down and watch professionals at work over time in order to collect sufficient knowledge of working habits, preferences and workflows. I have the greatest respect for Daniel Spreadbury, and the research and work he has now brought into Dorico in terms of engraving quality is outstanding. He may be a great musician too, but he's not a composer. I wish he was...


While I certainly agree that long term observation would be preferable, I don't think that is a luxury many developers can afford. Instead they must rely on inquiry and feedback, as well as their own experience.

That said, I have no idea what methods the team used when researching workflows and features. From what I've read, it just seems more extensive than one might expect.

nordensten said...
The fact that we just got Finale 25.1 is encouraging. I think it will also inspire the Dorico team to work even harder. Dorico has great potential and we shall all pray that Steinberg/Yamaha has the patience and resources to keep the team going. But software is not only about getting more beautiful output, it is also about getting the work done faster and more efficiently...


Certainly! As I've said, I don't mind not being able to do things manually, as long as the program delivers what I need automatically. What it comes down to for me is the sum total of quality vs. the time spent to achieve it.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/22/2016 4:41 PM
Gary the T said...
Not having the time to scour through other forums, I'm curious about one thing in particular:

How do you enter notes in Dorico? Does it accept MIDI input like Finale, or is is strictly mouse and/or computer keyboard entry? Details would be cool.


Apparently you can enter notes from a MIDI keyboard.
However, after watching a presentation on Dorico, they seem to have a strange idea of what is "good" and what is not about how to enter notes from MIDI.
They subtly knocked Finale for Speedy entry's note entry method, which is strange to me, since Speedy is a very efficient means of entering notes from a MIDI keyboard. It's one of the reasons I was incapable of switching to Sibelius (it later added a Speedy-like note entry method).


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Posted By : Knut - 10/22/2016 4:54 PM
Fred G. Unn said...
Knut, care to comment on any speed issues? I noticed a few people on the Dorico forum complaining about lags in processing. I figured with a brand new architecture Dorico would certainly be able to at least beat Finale in the speed department, but their complaints may be due to their own system. I was just wondering if you had experienced any significant slow downs or if it's fairly quick with large computations.


It's definitely a lot more responsive than Finale 2014 and 14.5, as well as compared to my past experiences with Sibelius (v. 6).

I haven't tested Dorico with any large scores yet, but it generally feels very responsive. There is a small lag when opening and switching switching between dialogue windows and projects that I would definitely like to see improve, even though I wouldn't usually need to do this much in my regular workflow.

The only major speed issue I've encountered, and this one is pretty huge, is that when selecting an entire passage of music and transposing it diatonically (moving the notes up or down the staff), the program precedes to move each note in turn, instead of all at once. This means that transposing even just a couple of pages takes more than a minutes time!

This last one, which is not a bug but an imperfect implementation, will probably be fixed pretty quickly, and I know that the team is working hard to address all speed issues that have been reported. For the time being, I'm pretty happy with the speed, though, but there undoubtedly is some work still to be done in this regard as well.


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Posted By : Fred G. Unn - 10/22/2016 5:12 PM
Knut said...

It's definitely a lot more responsive than Finale 2014 and 14.5, as well as compared to my past experiences with Sibelius (v. 6).
...
The only major speed issue I've encountered, and this one is pretty huge, is that when selecting an entire passage of music and transposing it diatonically (moving the notes up or down the staff), the program precedes to move each note in turn, instead of all at once. This means that transposing even just a couple of pages takes more than a minutes time!


Good to hear, thanks! I assume they will figure a way to address that last issue soon.

Posted By : Mike Halloran - 10/22/2016 6:07 PM
Knut said...
Fred G. Unn said...

Finale (and Encore, the old Acorn version of Sibelius, etc) basically were inventing the field of WYSIWYG music notation software. I've been a user since Fin2.3 and can remember looking up the clef codes in a huge printed manual, so I have no illusions about early versions of Finale, but the music notation software market is now fairly mature. Finale and Sibelius certainly aren't perfect, but they are both excellent and usable options to publish music. Anyone trying to crack into this relatively small market must give users a reason to spend their money. All of the things mentioned that are missing from Dorico 1.0 are things any reasonable person would expect a new music notation program to be able to do.


There's a strong case to be made that Dorico is aiming to redefine the field of computer based music notation, so I actually think it's entirely appropriate to show them similar leniency. This is certainly the reason why many of the features you're asking for wasn't in the initial release. For example, in the case of chord symbols, the Dorico developers clearly aren't content with simply copying the functionality of Finale or Sibelius. They want to take an entirely different (and hopefully much better) approach. If this is the road taken for every single feature in Dorico (and the first release certainly feels like it), building a scoring application becomes a monumental task pretty fast.

Are you really suggesting that we give them our money when it can't do the things we need?

I'll pass, thanks. Dorico isn't even close to being ready for a general release, IMO. Yamaha can afford to keep the research flowing at Steinberg if they are serious about this product—I have other things to worry about.

I spent way too much money on vaporware and promises over the last 31 years. Heck, I am not overjoyed about Finale 25.1 but, between it and 2014.5, I can do what I need.

I did plunk down for the Overture 5.1.1 crossgrade as it has a couple of note entry features that make my life easier and supports MusicXML 3 in case I want to export to Finale (which I will do for many projects). The money isn't the issue for me—having software that works is.


Mike Halloran

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Post Edited (Mike Halloran) : 10/22/2016 5:22:55 PM (GMT-5)


Posted By : ttw - 10/22/2016 6:31 PM
Too often programs are written to meet deadlines, not specifications.


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Posted By : Jeremy Levy - 10/22/2016 7:08 PM
I'll chime in as a beta tester for Dorico. First of all, the list contained a lot of professionals in the field. You shouldn't assume that it was all fanboys, whatever that means.

2nd, understand that the job of beta testers is not to create the program's architecture and features. Our job was to use the program and tell them when things crashed or otherwise didn't work. They were very responsive to all the beta comments. However, again understand that they had already created the foundation and features of the program over the past few years. They know what they're doing and will add features in as quick as they can. Seeing the progress from a couple of months ago, we should all expect rapid changes and improvements.

I agree that it's not quite ready for professional use yet, but it had to be released at some point. Now that it's out, just sit back and watch as it rapidly improves.


Jeremy Levy
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Posted By : Motet - 10/22/2016 7:37 PM
Yes, note input looks like Sibelius. If they knock Speedy entry in their materials that betrays a foolish stubbornness and ignorance, I think.


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Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : nordensten - 10/23/2016 3:22 AM
Knut said...


It's definitely a lot more responsive than Finale 2014 and 14.5, as well as compared to my past experiences with Sibelius (v. 6).


This is definitely not the case on the Windows platform!!


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Posted By : nordensten - 10/23/2016 3:38 AM
Jeremy Levy said...
I'll chime in as a beta tester for Dorico. First of all, the list contained a lot of professionals in the field. You shouldn't assume that it was all fanboys, whatever that means.

2nd, understand that the job of beta testers is not to create the program's architecture and features. Our job was to use the program and tell them when things crashed or otherwise didn't work. They were very responsive to all the beta comments. However, again understand that they had already created the foundation and features of the program over the past few years. They know what they're doing and will add features in as quick as they can. Seeing the progress from a couple of months ago, we should all expect rapid changes and improvements.

I agree that it's not quite ready for professional use yet, but it had to be released at some point. Now that it's out, just sit back and watch as it rapidly improves.


I do have faith in this team, so I'm not worried about my small investment not paying off. Still, I strongly feel that the release was rushed.

Regarding beta testers, I think perhaps it was too many, too late? I've now spent a mere 12 hours with the program and already found many bugs and inconsistent behavior in all areas of the program. Hopefully the beta team found those too, but there was not enough time to rectify them before release.
Although many features were clearly announced as not included in version 1, there are also a lot of features left incomplete... I smell that the program has already developed a lot beyond the released version, so I'm basically very optimistic. I'm now also more optimistic regarding Finale's developement!


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
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Posted By : nordensten - 10/23/2016 3:48 AM
Motet said...
Yes, note input looks like Sibelius. If they knock Speedy entry in their materials that betrays a foolish stubbornness and ignorance, I think.


It's certainly an air of "sibeliusness" about it, yes. That would also be true if they are decimating Speedy entry...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB


Posted By : Gary the T - 10/23/2016 5:13 PM
@nordensten; @Michel R. E.

Thanks for the info about note entry. I much prefer MIDI entry, i.e. Speedy (except for the nonsense I'm going through at the moment, which you can read about here, if you're totally looking for a way to fall asleep quickly), to point-and-click or QWERTY-based note entry, just because the music keyboard is my natural milieu.

I rarely, if ever, try to play my stuff in real-time rhythm or tempo, but for 20 years I've entered 95% of my notes with one hand on the MIDI keyboard and the other on the number pad, and that's a hard habit to break.

Cheers,

Gary


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Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 10/23/2016 5:18 PM
Gary the T said...
I much prefer MIDI entry, i.e. Speedy

Simple does MIDI entry, too. (Jus' sayin' ;-) )


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Posted By : Motet - 10/23/2016 5:36 PM
Right, MIDI is not the issue. Rather, the main issue for me is duration-oriented (specify a duration, then enter one or more pitches) or pitch-oriented (specify a pitch, then enter one or more durations). My ideal would be to have both (which Speedy does, albeit a little clumsily, with CapsLock). Sometimes one is desirable, sometimes the other. It appears Dorico is duration-oriented.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Gary the T - 10/23/2016 7:56 PM
Dr. Wiggy said...
Simple does MIDI entry, too. (Jus' sayin' ;-) )

D'oh! Forgot all about that! I use Simple so rarely that it (like Hyperscribe) barely registers in my consciousness.

@Motet:

I like CapsLock with Speedy when I'm putting in something like Jesu, Joy…


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Posted By : stringtapper - 10/28/2016 4:01 PM
Finally got the educational cross grade for Dorico yesterday.

First impressions are that the interface seems well designed. The Players/Flows/Layouts concept is a paradigm shift that will take a while to get used to.

It's pretty impressive how much direct control there is over certain aspects like the width and taper of slurs. It's clear that they have laid the groundwork for future improvements that could very well make Dorico *the* notation program one day…


…but not today. As others have noted, there's just a lot of basic stuff that isn't in there yet. Not being able to manually change the space between staves is something that I'm not sure how anyone could do without. Then again, I get the sense from the forum that most of the people who are switching to Dorico are strictly composing with it (seems like the bulk of the transplants are coming from Sibelius) rather than engraving, so maybe Dorico's spacing algorithms are good enough for that kind of work.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the software, as I certainly won't be able to use it for anything serious in its current state.

I'm also looking forward to seeing if MakeMusic has any kind of response to the release of Dorico (they did release 25.1 on the same day Dorico released) in terms of increasing the flexibility of graphical manipulation.


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