The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=488304
Posted By : OCTO. - 11/11/2016 1:03 PM
Seems that MM developers have focus somewhere else than on notation.
Music spacing in Finale is definitely better than in Sibelius but some things MUST be improved. Look at this:
notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=233
Please join us there and comment.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : Motet - 11/11/2016 1:10 PM
I'd lobby for getting the bugs out first before worrying about spacing with cross-staff notes with lots of accidentals.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : David Ward - 11/11/2016 1:17 PM
Motet said...
I'd lobby for getting the bugs out first before worrying about spacing with cross-staff notes with lots of accidentals.
But does one preclude the other? Improvements & corrections can surely develop hand in hand. That's what would I hope for, anyway.


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK


Posted By : Motet - 11/11/2016 1:32 PM
Well, sure, but if things need to be prioritized, I would say the bugs affect many more users than the spacing of cross-staff notes with accidentals that could be kerned.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/11/2016 1:44 PM
This spacing issue is not from the last month. At least 1/4 of century.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 11/11/2016 1:48 PM
Motet said...
Well, sure, but if things need to be prioritized, I would say the bugs affect many more users than the spacing of cross-staff notes with accidentals that could be kerned.

I'm with you on that one.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4


Posted By : Motet - 11/11/2016 2:04 PM
I guess you could call the above spacing issue a bug. I suspect it has to do with how cross-staff is implemented--I think as far as the spacing algorithm goes Finale considers it all on one staff. Of course ideally it should be fixed. My point was on the scale of things, it likely affects relatively few users compared to some of the other bugs.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Knut - 11/12/2016 9:03 AM
I think David's sentiment is something MakeMusic has to consider if they want to stay competitive. They have to be able to improve the engraving features of the application and fix bugs at the same time.

That said, I think the problem OCTO's addressing should be part of a larger implementation with regard to automatic optical music spacing, and as such, will surely require a major overhaul, which needs to be done correctly.

MakeMusic has had the opportunity to work on this for quite a while, but may nevertheless just be starting in response to the spacing abilities of LilyPond and Dorico, in which case it will inevitably take some time.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 11/12/2016 12:19 PM
I see no reason to join a Dorico forum to whine about Finale. That can be done well enough here, right?

I highly doubt that MM worries about LilyPond. Text entry to look like 19th C. engraving is neither the goal nor practical workflow of most. Likewise, Notion and Overture have their users. Even Encore has its diehards although it is years overdue for an update. MuseScore is a hot mess at best—oh yea, like LilyPond, it's free. BTW, I have current licenses for Encore which I use and Overture which I'm looking at. I don't see any of those as competition to Finale although I can see Notion and Overture trying to fill the gap left by dropping the AV viewer in F25—so that could change.

OTOH, the existence of Dorico which, like Sibelius, should light a bit of a fire under MM and we should see improvements to Finale down the road. Who knows—Dorico could also get good enough that I might consider it someday (not holding my breath—if it happens, it happens). Competition is good.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4


Posted By : Knut - 11/12/2016 12:46 PM
MikeHalloran said...
I see no reason to join a Dorico forum to whine about Finale. That can be done well enough here, right?


Not sure what you're implying here, but joining a user forum to complain about another product is, of course, not the most productive thing to do.

MikeHalloran said...
I highly doubt that MM worries about LilyPond. Text entry to look like 19th C. engraving is neither the goal nor practical workflow of most. Likewise, Notion and Overture have their users. Even Encore has its diehards although it is years overdue for an update. MuseScore is a hot mess at best—oh yea, like LilyPond, it's free. BTW, I have current licenses for Encore which I use and Overture which I'm looking at. I don't see any of those as competition to Finale although I can see Notion and Overture trying to fill the gap left by dropping the AV viewer in F25—so that could change.


That's a pretty snide statement coming from a Finale user, I'd say.

Anyway, my point was merely that with regard to spacing, Lilypond is light years ahead of Finale, and the most advanced software out there in this respect. MakeMusic should follow the Dorico team's example and deliver spacing algorithms to at least match those in Lilypond specifically.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 11/13/2016 8:21 AM
Since the MM team has taken on new staff in its new location, along with those stalwarts who moved with the company, I have found them very responsive and very keen to get bugs fixed, improve the UI, improve the notation and add new features (all while keeping legacy documents intact, of course).

Whatever your previous experience with the many incarnations of MakeMusic -- or Coda before it -- I would urge everyone to engage with the company in providing constructive feedback. Obviously, they are practical limitations to what they can achieve in a given time, so don't expect miracles. :p


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk


Posted By : Knut - 11/13/2016 8:48 AM
Dr. Wiggy said...
Since the MM team has taken on new staff in its new location, along with those stalwarts who moved with the company, I have found them very responsive and very keen to get bugs fixed, improve the UI, improve the notation and add new features (all while keeping legacy documents intact, of course).

Whatever your previous experience with the many incarnations of MakeMusic -- or Coda before it -- I would urge everyone to engage with the company in providing constructive feedback. Obviously, they are practical limitations to what they can achieve in a given time, so don't expect miracles. :p


Thanks, Wiggy!

That's somewhat reassuring. And I agree, of course, that constructive feedback is the only way to influence the company. I think many of us who from time to time (or all the time) complain about bugs, performance or lack of functionality in Finale are long time users with a certain amount of perspective. If your assertion is correct, that's great, but I will likely remain skeptical until I see more concrete results.

That said, I think the performance of Finale 25 and MakeMusic's willingness to forgo certain features to clean up the code base, is a step in the right direction.


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/13/2016 9:22 AM
MikeHalloran said...
I see no reason to join a Dorico forum to whine about Finale. That can be done well enough here, right?

If you mean the link to the forum I posted at the top of the thread (notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=233) - there are no products at that forum. It is independent forum & community just for music notation.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : MikeHalloran - 11/13/2016 1:42 PM
OCTO. said...
MikeHalloran said...
I see no reason to join a Dorico forum to whine about Finale. That can be done well enough here, right?

If you mean the link to the forum I posted at the top of the thread (notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=233) - there are no products at that forum. It is independent forum & community just for music notation.


I still see no reason to join another forum. Have fun!


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/14/2016 4:54 AM
MikeHalloran said...
OCTO. said...
MikeHalloran said...
I see no reason to join a Dorico forum to whine about Finale. That can be done well enough here, right?

If you mean the link to the forum I posted at the top of the thread (notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=233) - there are no products at that forum. It is independent forum & community just for music notation.


I still see no reason to join another forum. Have fun!


You really don't need.
I'v just clarified that it is not Dorico's forum.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 11/14/2016 3:04:17 AM (GMT-6)