The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=488388
Posted By : OCTO. - 11/14/2016 5:02 AM
Another ridiculous spacing "defect". I wish MM to fix these instead of implementing some new Tibetan instruments.
Automatic spacing ON.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 11/14/2016 5:48 AM
Have you reported it?


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/14/2016 6:29 AM
No.
Do you get the same in v25?




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 11/14/2016 6:59 AM
Ye.s I would expect spacing to be the same unless they've listed it as a fix.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk


Posted By : David Ward - 11/14/2016 7:04 AM
I too find this one frustrating.


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK

Post Edited (David Ward) : 11/14/2016 5:07:12 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Vaughan - 11/14/2016 8:22 AM
For what it's worth, this is how Dorico version 1.0 deals with it using its default settings (most which can be adjusted considerably). Not perfect (augmentation dot in bar 2 too close to the eighth after it) but a lot better, including default stem lengths. Even the position of the rests is determined by the context and not by a one-size-fits-all algorithm (Document Options/Layers/Adjust floating rests by...). You're right, MM really needs to address this.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : N. Grossingink - 11/14/2016 8:32 AM
Vaughan said...
For what it's worth, this is how Dorico version 1.0 deals with it using its default settings (most which can be adjusted considerably). Not perfect (augmentation dot in bar 2 too close to the eighth after it) but a lot better, including default stem lengths. Even the position of the rests is determined by the context and not by a one-size-fits-all algorithm (Document Options/Layers/Adjust floating rests by...). You're right, MM really needs to address this.


How do you fix the spacing in the second bar with Dorico? Just curious.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale


Posted By : Vaughan - 11/14/2016 10:50 AM
I knew someone was going to ask that! At the moment, Dorico is still functioning under the assumption that spacing can be automated and, as a result, horizontal shifts affecting spacing can't yet be done, although they're looking into implementing this soon. Having said this, there may very well be a setting which determines the minimum amount of space after an augmentation dot, but I haven't dug that deeply yet. I'm planning to post that example on the Dorico forum and see what they say.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : Writer of Music - 11/14/2016 11:30 AM
OCTO. said...
… I wish MM to fix these instead of implementing some new Tibetan instruments.


And that's what I've been requesting for decades. Ain't gonna happen. It's far more lucrative for a commercial company to always leave a number of bugs unfixed, so we'll all keep buying the next upgrade, only to find a similar number of bugs unfixed.


Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.


Posted By : Knut - 11/14/2016 5:10 PM
Writer of Music said...
OCTO. said...
… I wish MM to fix these instead of implementing some new Tibetan instruments.


And that's what I've been requesting for decades. Ain't gonna happen. It's far more lucrative for a commercial company to always leave a number of bugs unfixed, so we'll all keep buying the next upgrade, only to find a similar number of bugs unfixed.


I hadn't been on this forum regularly for quite a while until the threads on Dorico in the last few weeks. It might just be my imagination, but I've detected a considerable increase in cynicism and, seemingly, defensiveness from certain forum members. Considering the state of Finale and MakeMusic in the last few years, this is certainly understandable, and MakeMusic should take a note of this. Hopefully future versions will promote more healthy attitudes.

Then again, as I said, it might just be me imagining things. :-)


13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/15/2016 12:21 AM
Personally, not wishing to be cynic, rather with a dose of humor to point in the right direction. I myself dislike cynism very much, and reading texts can't reveal one's attitude. OK, here is a smile :)
And of course, I am thankful to Finale for many scores I produced (some despite of numerous obstacles).

Here I want to HELP MakeMusic.

I am not looking at Dorico, I have Sibelius but I don't use it.

I can't program, what should I do?




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : ttw - 11/15/2016 12:27 AM
You could write at specification of improvements you have in mind. Think of a desirable feature; then think about how this feature would impact other features; the send something to MM. It's not easy to tell program developers what is desired.


Finale 2014.5, 25
GWI, GPO4, GPO5, JABB 3, Steinway Basic, COMB2

Windows 10 Pro HP Envy Desktop
Windows 10 Home HP Portable


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/15/2016 12:31 AM
Since about 2011 I have sent numerous things to the MM, from my account. They thanked. And I have never seen any of these implemented. No one single thing.

Maybe they should have an open space where users (or anyone) can see what is requested, with voting, and if it is ever been fixed.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : John Ruggero - 11/15/2016 9:01 AM
Two very basic requests were just made by MM Technical Support in my name. I await the outcome eagerly and with positivity:

1. Rearrangements of the icons on the Smart Shape, Special Tools, Simple Entry notes and Rests Palettes should be saved as part of the Tool Sets so that one's work space can remain the same each time Finale is opened. This is not possible in Finale 2014 or 2014.5.

2. In Finale 2014.5, it is suddenly impossible to collapse any of the palettes and keep them in one row when they are stretched VERTICALLY. The palettes jump to two rows. This worked fine in Finale 2014. Correcting this bug was termed a "feature request" by the very helpful and friendly support person.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 11/15/2016 7:16:14 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : David Ward - 11/15/2016 9:50 AM
John Ruggero said...
… …In Finale 2014.5, it is suddenly impossible to collapse any of the palettes and keep them in one row when they are stretched VERTICALLY. The palettes jump to two rows.…
Is this how you want the main tool palette? This is in F 2014.5.


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK


Posted By : Writer of Music - 11/15/2016 9:51 AM
OCTO. said...
(…) I am thankful to Finale for many scores I produced (…)


Just curious: why are you thankful? Shouldn't it rather be obvious that software does what you paid for it to do? You do have every reason, me thinks, to complain when it still doesn't do what it' supposed to do, even though you paid for it (many times over by now with all the 'upgrades'). Some may call it 'being cynical', I'ld think it's rather 'being realistic'.


Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.


Posted By : John Ruggero - 11/15/2016 11:57 AM
David Ward said...
Is this how you want the main tool palette? This is in F 2014.5.


No. Yours is not collapsed. Position your cursor on the bottom margin of the palette so a two-headed vertical arrow appears and then try to pull up from the bottom so the icons disappear one by one. It will immediately snap into two columns. This is not the case in Finale 2014, where it will stay in one column and one can make a small single column vertical palette, which is what I often desire.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : jange - 11/15/2016 1:40 PM
OCTO, are you sure that this is a Finale bug ?
On my Finale 2014.5 it only occurs if I don't have enough space on the system, i.e. if I squeeze to many measures into one system.


Jan
elbsound.studio

Posted By : Motet - 11/15/2016 2:18 PM
"Enough space" results in eighth notes way far apart, though.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 11/15/2016 1:26:23 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Vaughan - 11/15/2016 8:30 PM
The problem is that in cases like this one, Finale doesn't take the notes of the two layers into account at all. Having to stretch the music out disproportionally is definitely not an option!


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/15/2016 11:15 PM
jange, the distance between 1&2 eighth note and 2&3 eighth note must not be the same, even in your example.

The only solution, or to say WORKAROUND, is to attach the sapce symbol " " as the articulation with offset 50 or 70, AND check to avoid collision with Articulations.

Try with accidentals, the result is even worse.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : jange - 11/16/2016 6:30 AM
You are right, OCTO.
I will write it down as a requested feature for the Perfect Layout plugin.

Post Edited (jange) : 11/16/2016 4:37:35 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Christopher Smith - 11/16/2016 9:54 AM
OCTO. said...
jange, the distance between 1&2 eighth note and 2&3 eighth note must not be the same, even in your example.

The only solution, or to say WORKAROUND, is to attach the sapce symbol " " as the articulation with offset 50 or 70, AND check to avoid collision with Articulations.

Try with accidentals, the result is even worse.


While Octo's solution is my very favourite one, there are other ways to accomplish it. What I like about this one is it will survive a respace command, while manually dragging the beat spacers will not. Adding grace notes (or rests, if you don't want the playback affected) then hiding them is another option.

Unfortunately, adding items like hidden grace rests or blank articulations to affect the spacing means that if this is two clarinet parts in the score, then the clarinet with the added item will not space properly in the linked part. Extraction and removal of the added item is the only solution in that case, and I HATE having to extract parts now!


Christopher Smith

Mac Mini (Late 2014) 2.8 Ghz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM
OSX Yosemite 10.10.5
Finale 2014.5 and V. 25
or
Macbook Pro (Retina, 13 inch, early 2015) 2.7 Ghz Intel Core i5, 8 GB RAM
OSX Yosemite 10.10.5
Finale 2014.5 and V. 25


Posted By : Vaughan - 11/16/2016 10:29 AM
That's the point of this whole discussion. Finale's functionality doesn't take into account something as basic as this and, as a result, we have to resort to workarounds which create other problems, or we have to depend on third party plugins which do the work MM should have done. If people like Jari and Jange are able to accomplish these things, why can't MM? And what's more, why isn't MM actively supporting these people, as well as several others like Tobias Giesen en Robert Patterson?


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/16/2016 2:52 PM
Vaughan said...
That's the point of this whole discussion. Finale's functionality doesn't take into account something as basic as this and, as a result, we have to resort to workarounds which create other problems, or we have to depend on third party plugins which do the work MM should have done. If people like Jari and Jange are able to accomplish these things, why can't MM? And what's more, why isn't MM actively supporting these people, as well as several others like Tobias Giesen en Robert Patterson?


Many whys - but God is the silence. OH!
Agree.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : Chad M - 11/16/2016 2:57 PM
Hey everyone! Thanks for the great discussion! Earlier this year, we launched a new help center platform which includes a user-driven community, including a board specific to feature requests that allows users to up-vote posts. Here are the links:

Feature Requests - Have an idea for a new feature? Share it here and vote for others.
General Problems & Questions - Pose questions to knowledgeable experts and share your expertise with others.

While it is largely a user-driven resource, our Customer Success team also participates in our new help center. We hope to create a more transparent view into product development and foster helpful discussion related to the use of our products.


Chad M
Customer Success Manager
MakeMusic, Inc



These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our Customer Success staff, please contact us directly at www.finalemusic.com/support/contact-us/.


Posted By : Mike Rosen - 11/16/2016 3:07 PM
Chad,

Most of us here have looked at - and dismissed - those forums, for a number of reasons. They were discussed here, when the new setup was first introduced.

Product development should be driven by long-standing bugs and requests, not votes and 'likes'.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."


Posted By : John Ruggero - 11/16/2016 5:57 PM
I agree with Mike. If Finale had fewer flaws, a forum for requesting new "features" that really were features and not bug fixes would be more in order.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : Dave Lang - 11/16/2016 8:09 PM
Chad - As stated earlier, there are a number of reasons that people who use Finale prefer this forum.


MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.6, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25


Posted By : Vaughan - 11/16/2016 9:31 PM
I fourth the above three comments!


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/17/2016 12:06 AM
Me too. Fifthe here.

Chad M said...

General Problems & Questions - Pose questions to knowledgeable experts and share your expertise with others.

Why don't you consider this forum's huge database of users, topics and replies as something valuable? Here are knowledgeable experts and we shared our expertise with others for many years. That seems not to be fair.

OCTO said...
MM has opened this FORUM (1) so that users can help each other. It is on .makemusic.com domain but they don't monitor.
If you don't get help or improvements here, you might try via their SUPPORT (2). I tried several times, and I was not particularly satisfied. Also, the help that is not visible to all users, is a 1/2 help.
Than we have a BLOG (3), but you cannot comment to suggest.
Than, they opened a FACEBOOK account (4), for quick help.
Than they opened another help forum at ZENDESK (5).

And now, the feature requests [6], but we are not sure how they are handled.

I am confused. Please help me.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : Motet - 11/18/2016 12:57 PM
Chad M said...
Hey everyone! Thanks for the great discussion! Earlier this year, we launched a new help center platform which includes a user-driven community, including a board specific to feature requests that allows users to up-vote posts....While it is largely a user-driven resource, our Customer Success team also participates in our new help center. We hope to create a more transparent view into product development and foster helpful discussion related to the use of our products.

As has been pointed out, the new help center platform is wanting for several reasons. Is there some reason your Customer Success team can't participate here?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


Posted By : Vaughan - 11/18/2016 2:01 PM
Well said, Motet! Let's see if we get an answer to that...


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam


Posted By : OCTO. - 11/18/2016 2:44 PM
+1.

No, +2000. :-)




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM


Posted By : Dave Lang - 11/18/2016 3:41 PM
Unfortunately I don't think there will be an answer.

I don't understand why modern companies write off the user forums almost all the time.

Must be something in the MBA programs that tells them this is a good idea.

As someone else pointed out, you have a group of knowledgeable, committed clients that want to help.

Yet you turn your back to them over and over again.

weird


MacBook Pro Retina 15" (late 2013), OSX 10.11.6, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25


Posted By : Mike Rosen - 11/18/2016 6:42 PM
"Voting" on problems and suggestions? Really?

And besides, every time I go there, I have to sign in. Again. I don't have time for this sort of foolishness.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."