The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=490154
Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 12/14/2016 2:02 PM
I'm not convinced that Articulation placement is as it should be. Look at the example here. I've ticked "Avoid Staff Lines" and "Place Outside the Staff", but the default position for notes on the middle line is actually sitting ON a staff line.

1. What do people think the correct / preferred placement should be?
2. Is Finale wrong here?

Any thoughts would be welcome.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
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Posted By : N. Grossingink - 12/14/2016 2:39 PM
My preference would be that they clear the staff.

It looks like your "Default Vertical Positioning" and "Handle Positioning" need some work. I would use the settings for the marcato accent (>) as those look to be nearest to the parameters you want. Just duplicate the marcato and swap out the symbols.

N.


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Posted By : N. Grossingink - 12/14/2016 2:50 PM
How's this:

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls


Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 12/14/2016 3:50 PM
Thanks, that's really nice.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk


Posted By : John Ruggero - 12/14/2016 6:51 PM
I am used to seeing the tip of the wedge very close to the note head, no matter where the note head occurs. Here is an example from the Schenker edition of the Beethoven op. 27 no. 1:


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The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : John Ruggero - 12/14/2016 7:25 PM
I should add that E. Gould says on page 120 that:

"Accent marks and wedges are usually best placed outside the stave where they are most visible…but can move onto the stave..." if they would be too far away from the note.

Then she mentions that "The ^ accent and wedge should intersect a stave line for greatest visibility." and gives an example of wedges starting off the staff but then accompanying the notes into the staff as they move lower and lower.

I think that in general it looks unnatural when articulation marks hover in one position over the staff as the notes move away from them. But the horizontal > accent gets obscured when placed on the staff and one has to put up with this unnatural placement. However, the wedge and ^ are vertical and may be placed on the staff without being obscured by the staff lines.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : N. Grossingink - 12/14/2016 7:27 PM
John Ruggero said...
I am used to seeing the tip of the wedge very close to the note head, no matter where the note head occurs. Here is an example from the Schenker edition of the Beethoven op. 27 no. 1:


See attached. You make some good points.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls


Posted By : Vaughan - 12/14/2016 11:08 PM
Interesting. I agree with John (and Elaine Gould) and actually with Wiggy's first example, in which the wedges follow the placement of the noteheads but intersect the staff lines where necessary to aid visibility. In this regard, the Schenker edition is inconsistent, as the wedges sometimes intersect the staff lines (as I would prefer them) as in mm. 43-45 but are often placed between them.


Vaughan

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Posted By : John Ruggero - 12/14/2016 11:25 PM
The Schenker edition (Universal), and N.s' second example follows a different principle: the tip of the wedge is practically touching the note head at all times, which brings it into conflict with Gould's observations. I think that Gould's system may lead to a more elegant result if one elects to let the wedges run into the staff.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.


Posted By : Motet - 12/15/2016 1:11 AM
Perhaps "place outside staff lines" means the handle. You can adjust where the mark lines in relation to its handle in the settings.


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Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 12/15/2016 3:36 AM
Indeed. The documentation does actually say that it relates to the handle position, not the actual object itself.

I'm as much interested in whether Finale's settings are helpful as what the optimal placement should be.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk


Posted By : jange - 12/15/2016 4:30 AM
It has to do with how the glyph is placed in the font.
If it goes below the baseline, then it can cross the staff lines.
And in this case it is below the baseline.
See attached screenshot (horizontal green line = baseline).

Jan


Elbsound.studio