MakeMusic Forum

Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help

MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Plug-In Development - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Feedback wanted: Rest spacing plug-in

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Jari Williamsson
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246

Posted 1/29/2011 3:57 PM (GMT -6)

To all Finale users:

I'm planning to create a plug-in to space full measure rests proportionally. The things that the plug-in should handle:

A full measure rests with "long" time signature should require more space than a full measure rest with a short time signature
A long multimeasure rests should require more space than a short multimeasure rest

I would like feedback on how you would like this proportionality to be handled:

Should it be proportional to the current spacing factor?
How much space should a full measure rest require, compared to a multi-measure rest?
Should multimeasure rest widths be proportional to the actual beat duration within the multimeasure rests?
Other things?

Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

KennethKen
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570

Posted 1/30/2011 12:47 PM (GMT -6)

Proportionality to the current spacing factor sounds resonable to me
Multi-measure rests should be larger than 1 full measure rest. Perhaps there could be a user defined setting (e.g., Minimum MMR length = "x.xx" of a full measure rest of the current time signature [where "x.xx" can be a multiplier of the full measure rest length, e.g. "1.25")
The above suggestion along with the 1st bullet in your first bulleted list should cover this, I think. I could be misunderstanding you though.

Did you plan on having the threshold for what is considered a "short" MMR verses a "long" MMR be user definable?
Will there be an option for a "medium" MMR?

Perhaps having a separate, user definable setting for the propotionality of MMRs and to full measures rest when "Use Symbols for Rest Less Than..." (Document/Doc Options/MMR) is checked would be helpful. Would the number in the "Use Symbols for Rest Less Than..." then be used to define "short" verse "long" MMRs. Since the symbols usually take up less space than long, horizontal black bar this would accomodate both scenarios without the user having to change the settings when opening and using different files that use different MMR symbols. Odd thing, of course, is that when using the symbols the 3 measure mmr symbols rests takes up more space than 4 measures mmr symbols because of their placement.

Ken

PS Since your dealing with measure widths, how about a plugin to adjust the widths of single and double repeat bar symbols. I wrote to Tobias to see if he'd include it in his measure widths plugin a few years back. He said it was a good idea that he'd like to include but he may simply not have the time or incentive to do it.

Windows XP, Finale 2010, Pentium 4, 3GHz, 2GB Ram

http://www.AmisMusicalCircle.com

Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 1/30/2011 5:09 PM (GMT -6)

I have often thought about making multi-measure rests slightly proportional. But it's a complex area, and I can situations where it will be difficult to pre-specify behaviour, rather than simply adjust it by hand.

Obviously, there's no point in making a 4-measure MMR take up the same space as 4 empty measures. But I can see some sense in displaying a 19-measure MMR as slightly longer than a 5-measure MMR, if they are on the same system, with a couple of music measures between them.

I'm not quite sure about the first idea of the plug-in. I would have to think and test about what Finale does and what expected behaviour is.

Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Jari Williamsson
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246

Posted 1/30/2011 6:18 PM (GMT -6)

Wiggy said...
I'm not quite sure about the first idea of the plug-in. I would have to think and test about what Finale does and what expected behaviour is.

The obvious target for this plug-in is parts where there's a lot of rest counting.

I've attached a sample screen shot of a (made-up) part, where you should see the problems. If anyone would put small chunks of music between the rests in that sample, it's evident that it would be impossible to graphically estimate when the music should start (caused by Finale's default fixed-size rest spacing).

Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

rests.gif 132KB (image/gif)

This image has been viewed 431 time(s).

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 2/2/2011 8:14 AM (GMT -6)

Jari,

Here are some relevant screenshots from Sibelius, which does this automatically. Do you have Sibelius? If not let me know if you want me to mock up anything.

Great idea for a plug-in.

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2
Logic Pro 9
Mac 10.5.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

Picture 1.png 51KB (image/png)

This image has been viewed 339 time(s).

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

Picture 2.png 33KB (image/png)

This image has been viewed 355 time(s).

File Attachment :
Pages from Sibelius Reference.pdf 101KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 1161 time(s).

Jari Williamsson
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246

Posted 2/2/2011 9:19 AM (GMT -6)

Philip. said...
Here are some relevant screenshots from Sibelius, which does this automatically. Do you have Sibelius? If not let me know if you want me to mock up anything.

Thanks Philip! I currently only have the Sib 5 demo, but the settings in your screenshot exist there as well. (Most annoying to hear the Sibelius Third when starting Sib 5, BTW. But OTOH, what should they use for Sib 8 - Tapiola? And OTOH, what do the Avid people really know about the real Sibelius...?

)

Those settings in the screen shot are too inflexible IMO. Anyhow, what I can't figure out is how the proportionality of the single bar rests (proportionality according to time sig measure duration) are controlled?

Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

Post Edited (Jari Williamsson) : 2/2/2011 8:22:57 AM (GMT-6)

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 2/2/2011 9:29 AM (GMT -6)

Jari Williamsson said...
Those settings in the screen shot are too inflexible IMO. Anyhow, what I can't figure out is how the proportionality of the single bar rests (proportionality according to time sig measure duration) are controlled?

I don't know if it is possible to control this, but there is an option for a fixed empty bar width in Note Spacing Rules, similar to Finale.

Ha, I enjoyed the startup sound for the first couple times, then switched it off in Preferences, luckily that's an option :)

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2
Logic Pro 9
Mac 10.5.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

Picture 2.png 126KB (image/png)

This image has been viewed 410 time(s).

Jari Williamsson
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246

Posted 2/2/2011 1:10 PM (GMT -6)

Philip. said...
I don't know if it is possible to control this, but there is an option for a fixed empty bar width in Note Spacing Rules, similar to Finale.

Ok, thanks for the info. I think it's very important to be able to control the proportionality of the single full rests as well. The question is if this value should be relative to the note spacing factor or if it should be a different value.

Regarding the MM rests, a user on the Finale e-mail list pointed out that he wanted a ceiling where MM rests should end being proportional. I think that's a very good option.

I'll probably post a dummy dialog sample here later on.

Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 2/7/2011 8:34 PM (GMT -6)

I'd like to add a suggestion for those that do "commercial" copying or published jazz ensemble arrangements that have that "commercial" style and look. (Basically talking about the style as put forth in Clinton Roemer's book "The Art of Music Copying")

It would be nice, on a system with 1 measure and a 3 bar multi rest, to have the 1 measure space normally and the 3 bar multi occupy the rest of the line. Actually, I try to avoid this situation but occasionally need to employ it. Another less severe and a very common example in my work would be 2 measures sharing a line with an 8 bar multi - space the two measures normally and have the multi occupy (about) half the line.

I'm sick and tired of manually adjusting MM rest widths via the Edit dialog. I've gotten pretty good at guessing width settings, but it would be great to have a tool that calculates this accurately.

Thanks for your hard work and generosity in making your plugins available!

N.

Finale 2010b
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM - OSX 10.6.4

Pianist Vladimir Horowitz received a letter from a fan praising him for his prowess "at the 88".

Q: (Horowitz to his daughter) What does he mean by "the 88"?
A: That's what some people call the piano because it has 88 keys.
Horowitz: Really? I had never bothered to count them!

Jari Williamsson
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246

Posted 2/8/2011 3:56 PM (GMT -6)

N. Grossingink said...
It would be nice, on a system with 1 measure and a 3 bar multi rest, to have the 1 measure space normally and the 3 bar multi occupy the rest of the line. Actually, I try to avoid this situation but occasionally need to employ it. Another less severe and a very common example in my work would be 2 measures sharing a line with an 8 bar multi - space the two measures normally and have the multi occupy (about) half the line.

I think it probably would be best to have an option like "Acceptable stretch of measures with contents" (suggestion for better name of the option highly appreciated

) in the plug-in.

Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 2/11/2011 7:20 PM (GMT -6)

I've been doing this manually for years and I would absolutely welcome a plugin which could do this automatically, but with user-definable parameters. A typical example: in 3/8, empty measures are considerably larger than ones with three eighths or, especially, a quarter and an eighth. This looks really ridiculous and always needs tweaking, something which can be very time-consuming. MMRs with proportionally variable widths would be most welcome, as well.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2011, Sibelius 4 - 6
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 5 plugin
MacOS 10.6.5
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (late 2008) 4GB
Kontakt 2, 3.5, 4.0

Amsterdam

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 2/11/2011 8:11 PM (GMT -6)

If you set Document Options->Music Spacing->Minimum Measure Width to 0, empty bars are a reasonable width.

I personally don't think varying multimeasure widths according to their length would make much difference. It's not of much benefit to the player. I suppose it would be nice if you had several together as in the Sibelius example above, but I wouldn't want it to take up more room that if you didn't do it at all.

Finale 2011b, 2005b, TGTools

Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3

Jari Williamsson
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246

Posted 2/12/2011 2:17 AM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
I personally don't think varying multimeasure widths according to their length would make much difference. It's not of much benefit to the player. I suppose it would be nice if you had several together as in the Sibelius example above, but I wouldn't want it to take up more room that if you didn't do it at all.

FWIW, I got the initial idea to the plug-in after playing from unreadable parts (with much rests and time sig changes).

Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

KennethKen
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570

Posted 2/13/2011 8:25 AM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
I personally don't think varying multimeasure widths according to their length would make much difference. It's not of much benefit to the player.

As a tuba player (someone who always has alot of rests in his part) I find it useful in addition to being logical and aestheically pleasing. Therefore, I always try to incorporate proportionality in my MMRs. It may not help others...but if it helps some that's reason enough for me to support it.

Ken

Windows XP, Finale 2010, Pentium 4, 3GHz, 2GB Ram

http://www.AmisMusicalCircle.com

Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943

Posted 10/13/2011 3:33 AM (GMT -6)

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but the subject has come up on a recent thread in the "Finale - Windows" forum. Did anything ever come of this? Such a plug-in would save me a great deal of time ...

Gareth J. Green

Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit

(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)

Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop

Stolichnaya Blue

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

Jari Williamsson
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246

Posted 11/13/2011 6:41 PM (GMT -6)

Version 1.00 is now available for download from the Finale tips site.

Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 11/14/2011 6:24 AM (GMT -6)

Many thanks for this, Jari. Once again, Finale gets better and better because of your work.

It's good to see some of your plug-ins included with Finale's installer. I hope you got paid well! (Though I don't expect you to answer!

)

Of course, while the plug-ins are better than nothing, it would be nice to have some of these functions built into Finale by default, so that Finale spaced MMs automatically this way.

I keep meaning to make a checklist of plug-ins that I need to run before the work is finished!

Finale 2012, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.7.2
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Forum Information

Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 6:28 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual