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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Adding instruments to the instrument list: Eb tuba | Forum Quick Jump
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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
      
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 9/28/2016 2:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | DCrocker said...
Tuba is written at pitch, except (apparently) in the world of British Brass Bands where it is treated as a treble clef transposing instrument. Go figure. Traditions!
It wasn't really "tradition".
In the early days of the brass band movement in the UK there were sound practical reasons, because it meant that all the valved brass instrument players in the group worked to the same fingering system, making it easier for players to switch between instruments as the need arose (often quite frequently) due to changing personnel. It didn't matter whether your instrument was pitched in soprano Bb (Cornets), alto Eb (Horns), tenor Bb (Baritones/Euphoniums), bass EB (Tuba) or Bass Bb (Tuba), a written 'C' scale was still a written 'C' scale and was fingered the same way, so you didn't have to learn a new fingering system if you had to change instrument.
Trombones were left out of the system, because it was felt that learning a slide position system as against a valve fingering system was harder, therefore players didn't switch to and from trombone so much. So tenor trombones in early scores were written in concert tenor clef, and bass trombone in concert bass clef. Over time, the tenor trombones became transposing instruments and changed to treble clef Bb transposing, the same as baritones/euphonium. Players realised that by equating the positions of a descending chromatic scale from a written 'C' (or any other "open" harmonic) to the fingering pattern of the same scale, it was relatively simple to figure out how to read the same transposed parts.
The bass trombone was left out of this and remained as a concert pitch bass clef part, because up until the mid-'60's (approx.) the British bass trombone (not just in brass bands) had a fundamental pitch of 'G', and so the slide positions were completely different from that of a Bb tenor, and didn't lend themselves to re-learning. By the time the US-origin Bb/F triggered bass trombone became common in the UK there was so much "legacy" repertoire written in bass clef that it was never going to be practical to change the bass trombone part to treble clef transposing, and so it remains the only instrument in a brass band score to be written in concert pitch (apart from tuned percussion).
The odd thing is that some modern publishers who provide so called "world parts" with their brass band sets (F horns, bass clef concert baritones/euphs/tubas etc.) also provide a Bb treble clef transposed bass trombone part. Almost full circle ...
Where it becomes really confusing is that in some parts of the world, and in some mixed woodwind/brass ensembles, "World Parts" sometimes also include parts for bass clef transposed Eb and Bb tubas. I guess this is for the same reason as the old UK treble clef transposing system, ie. a player who has learnt a fingering system for the 'C' tuba can now play a part on an Eb or Bb instrument without having to relearn the fingering. Again, almost full circle!
Now, if I can just collect up all these worms and get them back in the can ...
Gareth J. Green
Fin25
Windows 10 (under duress ... ) | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 6/1/2015 1:41 PM (GMT -6) | | | |
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kvehmane
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 117
| Posted 6/1/2015 3:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | Heckelphone and baritone oboe in parts: treble clef always. | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 2/13/2015 12:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Found this via a web search, by David Sprung of the San Francisco Opera (who was by the way my teacher):
"For those without experience playing opera professionally, Horn in A
and A-flat is always basso in 19th century Italian opera. There is even one
instance where horn in G is basso: Edgardo's aria in "Lucia" the third horn
in G is to be played basso. That baffled me because, although the voicing
of the four horns clearly indicates that the 3rd horn is in G basso, it is
the only instance that I know of where that is so, but the conductor Nello
Santi explained to me that the whole aria was written a half step higher
originally, and later transposed down and published that way, so horn in
A-flat (basso, as usual) became horn in G basso."
I in fact just played Lucia, but in a 2-horn reduction, so did not encounter this 3rd part.
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 2/12/2015 11:37:53 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 2/13/2015 12:03 AM (GMT -6) | | kvehmane, I forget now where G basso came from--some Verdi opera I played, perhaps, or maybe someone's web page. I confess I may have invented H alto myself for symmetry, but I'm pretty sure G basso is something I've seen, though if an Ab basso crook didn't exist, then likely a G basso crook didn't either! Ab basso is in Falstaff--not sure about Otello.
Charles, thanks for the feedback. My chart has the advantage of fitting on one page, and listing the real instruments serves those who may not know which octave Horn in C refers to. I believe I have shown all instruments likely to be encountered these days, but am always open to adding another. It's true that "sounding" and "written" convey redundant information, but this is also a point of confusion and I wanted to make it as clear as possible. Since everything fits, I see no reason to combine the two or to further abbreviate "major" and brethren.
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 2/12/2015 11:18:18 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 2/9/2015 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Motet,
I am not here to revive the discussion of whose transposition chart best serves the Finale community. Suffice it to say that my chart showed all possible transpositions (within reason - 5 octaves?), whether or not they were represented by an actual musical instrument, either in modern use or obsolete.
I will add one comment on your chart. It seems to me that since your "Sounding" and "Written" columns are redundant except for whether it is Up or Down, that you could save some real estate by consolidating the information into one column called, for instance, "Sounding/Written" and put something like "Up/Dn octave + m 2nd" for the Db transposition. You could explain the abbreviations used for major (M), minor (m), perfect (P), augmented (a), and diminished (d) in a note at the bottom. Just my 2 cents.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 2/9/2015 2:09:46 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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kvehmane
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 117
| Posted 2/9/2015 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | Well, I haven't seen ever the high B natural or G basso transpositions. B basso is in Brahms 2nd symphony and A flat basso in Verdi's Otello (but I have read somewhere that there were no actual A flat basso crook, they just faked it...) | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 2/8/2015 1:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Ah, Carmen, you're right!
I've got Horn in C alto, B natural alto, B flat alto, A, A flat, G, G flat, F sharp, F, E, E flat, D, D flat, C, B natural, B flat basso, A basso, A flat basso, and G basso. Any others you've seen that I've missed?
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 2/8/2015 1:02:43 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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kvehmane
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 117
| Posted 2/8/2015 6:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | Two famous examples are Haydn "Farewell" symphony and the end of Bizet Carmen. | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 1/5/2015 9:26 PM (GMT -6) | | | |
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