The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=445569
| Posted By : Keith B - 1/5/2015 5:45 AM | Hello - and a Happy New Year to everyone.
Some years back I got help from someone on the forum about adding instruments to the instrument list. He even went so far as to send me an instrument list that I fed into my version of Finale to give me the transposing Eb tuba and - I think - several other instruments I needed at the time.
I thus learned how to add instruments but the years have passed - going on 75 now... several changes of computer, several upgrades of Finale and at least one pretty horrific hard disk crash. All that knowledge is lost and a search of the forum database didn't cough it up either.
I know that a lot of tuba players (Bb and Eb) read in concert pitch but not many in concert bands in France...
It's easy to fix an transposing Eb tuba just by pulling in an Eb horn (for instance) - changing the name and pushing it into the bass clef. However, it was nice, and satisfying, to be able to build the missing instrument into the list and just pull it in every time I needed it. (Especially for one of the concert bands I do arrangements for: they have an Eb tuba as you'd probably guessed.) It's also useful to have the upper and lower limits of the instrument automatically indicated too.
At the time I also needed Catalan orchestra instruments so building new instruments into the list was even more important.
If anyone out there knows how to do it I'd be glad to hear from them. I'd like to relearn the technique and this time save it to a more reliable support... I'll also be trying to remember how to do it if my old addled brain will give me some clues...
Thanks in advance
Keith |
| Posted By : N. Grossingink - 1/5/2015 8:10 AM | There has been some discussion here on the forum regarding this.
As I remember, the introduction of the Score Manager in Finale 2012 required this file to be rewritten in a format that is not editable by most or all users. The consensus was pretty much that we're out of luck.
Maybe someone has more up to date info. In the meantime, you might consider making one or more templates that include those specialized transpositions and staff names. That way you don't have to continue "reinventing the wheel".
N.
Finale 2011c, 2012c - OSX 10.6.8
Finale 2014d Demo - OSX 10.8.5
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM
“The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.”
–Assyrian tablet, ca. 2800 BC |
| Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 1/5/2015 9:25 AM | Hello again Keith,
Yes that was me back in mid 2012. I sent you a modified Finale.instruments database file with the changes we discussed for your purposes. I will need to know the current version of Finale you are using, hopefully F2014d, and then I can resend you the file via your email, which I still have.
Charles
PS: To anyone contemplating such a move, while it is doable, it is not recommended, particularly if you ever send your Finale documents to any other place for perusal, or want students, for example, to be able to use the added instrument in their work, since the modified database will not be on any other computer, unless you put it there. If this is for your own purposes, that is fine. Also, if Finale is ever updated, the modified database will not be forwarded into the update. It is for these reasons that I do not post such work on this public forum, but only via email.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Dell XPS 600, GenuineIntel Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.00GHz [Intel64 Family 15 Model 4 Stepping 4] (2 processors)
8GB Ram
HT Omega Striker 7.1
MSI N430GT 2GB GPU
2 2TB and 2 4TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Edition, (06.01.7600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
|
| Posted By : Ron. - 1/5/2015 9:48 AM | What would we do without MakeMusic "improvements" that, while they might make it easier for a first time user to set up a score, make it exceeding difficult for an experienced user to make what used to be matter-of-course modifications to suit their needs? First they broke percussion mapping, then they broke instrument assignments, then they broke the tool palettes (which they've only partially fixed). I dread to think what they will decide to "improve" next.
Finale 2014c with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0.
JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2.
Steinway: basic. Garritan's Instant Orchestra.
Garritan World Instruments. TGTools Pro
Windows 7 Home Edition, AMD FX-8100 8-Core Processor, 10 GB RAM
onboard Beats Audio sound card
violin and flamenco guitar, composer
Administrator, The Compose Forums
Specializing in contemporary art music |
| Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 1/5/2015 10:13 AM | Subsequent to my working with Keith back in mid 2012 on this subject, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the work of Jolora in a similar project to add instruments to the database.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Dell XPS 600, GenuineIntel Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.00GHz [Intel64 Family 15 Model 4 Stepping 4] (2 processors)
8GB Ram
HT Omega Striker 7.1
MSI N430GT 2GB GPU
2 2TB and 2 4TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Edition, (06.01.7600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
|
| Posted By : Keith B - 1/5/2015 10:51 AM | Hello Charles! How nice to see you again! A very happy new year to you - and to you all.
In fact you probably remember you taught me how to modify the list for my 2010 version where it was still "readable" and you also sent me the file to change my 2012 version - which I did. I had to reinstall after a major crash so that's when I lost all your good work. Luckily I didn't lose any of the thousands of finale files...
Please do send me the file again: keith@kb-muse.com
Although I don't exchange many finale files with other people and those I do send files to are mostly on version 2010, by sending them as exported MusicXML files they pulled in the Eb tuba by some magic.
If you have the time I'd like to know how you made this file this time around so as I can get into it and translate all the instruments - or add the French names for all the instruments. Obviously it's no trouble for me to have them all in English but I do have to translate them when arranging for a French orchestra.
All the very best
Keith |
| Posted By : Motet - 1/5/2015 2:38 PM | In my signature is a link to a chart showing how to set up the transposition for instruments not in Finale's arsenal, but the Eb tuba shown there is for a treble clef part a la British brass bands, written up an octave plus a major sixth, sounding down an octave plus a major sixth.
How is it written in the bass clef? Written down a minor third (sounding up a minor third), or written up a major sixth (sounding down a major sixth)? Let me know and I'll add it to my chart.
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Finale 2014d demo
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 10/17/2015 12:41:51 AM (GMT-5) |
| Posted By : Motet - 1/5/2015 3:52 PM | From Googling, it looks like transposing the tuba in bass clef is not standard, so I guess I withdraw the request for info for changing my chart. You can, of course, pick either Eb sax or Eb horn, depending on which direction you want the transposition to go.
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : Jetcopy - 1/5/2015 7:31 PM | Motet said...
How is it written in the bass clef? Written down a minor third (sounding up a minor third), or written up a major sixth (sounding down a major sixth)? Let me know and I'll add it to my chart.
It's written up a major 6th. I'm not sure what's considered a standard transposition, but the publisher I engrave for has me make a set of "world parts" for each concert band piece. Among others, it includes Tuba in Bb & Eb Bass Clef and Tuba in Eb & Bb Treble Clef.
Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM |
| Posted By : Motet - 1/5/2015 9:26 PM | Thanks. Is the Bb bass clef written up a 2nd?
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : Jetcopy - 1/6/2015 9:03 AM | Motet said...
Thanks. Is the Bb bass clef written up a 2nd?
No, it's up a ninth.
Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM |
| Posted By : Motet - 1/6/2015 1:28 PM | Thanks. I've added those to my chart. Click the file attachment at the bottom, not the link in my signature.
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 1/6/2015 2:25:39 PM (GMT-6) |
| Posted By : Motet - 2/7/2015 4:06 PM | I discovered a reference to a piece for Horn in F#, so I've added that to my chart (I've never seen it personally in my years of horn playing).
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : kvehmane - 2/8/2015 6:23 AM | | Two famous examples are Haydn "Farewell" symphony and the end of Bizet Carmen. |
| Posted By : Motet - 2/8/2015 1:18 PM | Ah, Carmen, you're right!
I've got Horn in C alto, B natural alto, B flat alto, A, A flat, G, G flat, F sharp, F, E, E flat, D, D flat, C, B natural, B flat basso, A basso, A flat basso, and G basso. Any others you've seen that I've missed?
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 2/8/2015 1:02:43 PM (GMT-6) |
| Posted By : kvehmane - 2/9/2015 4:56 AM | | Well, I haven't seen ever the high B natural or G basso transpositions. B basso is in Brahms 2nd symphony and A flat basso in Verdi's Otello (but I have read somewhere that there were no actual A flat basso crook, they just faked it...) |
| Posted By : Charles Lawrence - 2/9/2015 2:58 PM | |
Motet,
I am not here to revive the discussion of whose transposition chart best serves the Finale community. Suffice it to say that my chart showed all possible transpositions (within reason - 5 octaves?), whether or not they were represented by an actual musical instrument, either in modern use or obsolete.
I will add one comment on your chart. It seems to me that since your "Sounding" and "Written" columns are redundant except for whether it is Up or Down, that you could save some real estate by consolidating the information into one column called, for instance, "Sounding/Written" and put something like "Up/Dn octave + m 2nd" for the Db transposition. You could explain the abbreviations used for major (M), minor (m), perfect (P), augmented (a), and diminished (d) in a note at the bottom. Just my 2 cents.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)
Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram
512 GB SSD
Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4.02
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 2/9/2015 2:09:46 PM (GMT-6) |
| Posted By : Motet - 2/13/2015 12:03 AM | kvehmane, I forget now where G basso came from--some Verdi opera I played, perhaps, or maybe someone's web page. I confess I may have invented H alto myself for symmetry, but I'm pretty sure G basso is something I've seen, though if an Ab basso crook didn't exist, then likely a G basso crook didn't either! Ab basso is in Falstaff--not sure about Otello.
Charles, thanks for the feedback. My chart has the advantage of fitting on one page, and listing the real instruments serves those who may not know which octave Horn in C refers to. I believe I have shown all instruments likely to be encountered these days, but am always open to adding another. It's true that "sounding" and "written" convey redundant information, but this is also a point of confusion and I wanted to make it as clear as possible. Since everything fits, I see no reason to combine the two or to further abbreviate "major" and brethren.
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 2/12/2015 11:18:18 PM (GMT-6) |
| Posted By : Motet - 2/13/2015 12:32 AM | Found this via a web search, by David Sprung of the San Francisco Opera (who was by the way my teacher):
"For those without experience playing opera professionally, Horn in A
and A-flat is always basso in 19th century Italian opera. There is even one
instance where horn in G is basso: Edgardo's aria in "Lucia" the third horn
in G is to be played basso. That baffled me because, although the voicing
of the four horns clearly indicates that the 3rd horn is in G basso, it is
the only instance that I know of where that is so, but the conductor Nello
Santi explained to me that the whole aria was written a half step higher
originally, and later transposed down and published that way, so horn in
A-flat (basso, as usual) became horn in G basso."
I in fact just played Lucia, but in a 2-horn reduction, so did not encounter this 3rd part.
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 2/12/2015 11:37:53 PM (GMT-6) |
| Posted By : Motet - 5/30/2015 8:27 PM | I've changed my chart slightly to make more explicit that most of these transpositions involve the treble clef, so I'm posting it here so I can link to it in my signature (I think for this posting, it will link to the old one).
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 5/30/2015 8:41:56 PM (GMT-5) |
| Posted By : Motet - 5/31/2015 4:13 PM | If a woodwind specialist could check my assertion of the listed instruments being notated in treble clef, I'd appreciate it. For example, heckelphone: treble or bass?
Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : kvehmane - 6/1/2015 3:35 AM | | Heckelphone and baritone oboe in parts: treble clef always. |
| Posted By : Flint - 6/1/2015 10:25 AM | Looks good.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAM
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read |
| Posted By : Motet - 6/6/2016 1:39 AM | I updated my transposition chart to include better instructions on enharmonic instrument transposition and so have uploaded it in this thread, where the older versions live. I've linked to the new one in my signature.
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 6/6/2016 1:48:57 AM (GMT-5) |
| Posted By : Motet - 9/26/2016 1:49 AM | I updated my transposition chart to include A Trumpet, a trivial change (same as A Clarinet). I have uploaded it in this thread, where the older versions live. I've linked to the new one in my signature.
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : Daz - 9/26/2016 8:46 AM | Hi
Thank you very much for this Motet.
I recently had to try and interpret a piece with a Trumpet in F. You would not believe the differing (and incorrect) opinions on what the transposition for that particular instrument are out there in the only reference I have available -- Dr. Google.
Thanks again.
Cheers...
Daz. :o)
------------------------
Finale 2006-2011, Finale 25 - Win7 64 bit
Core2 Duo i7-4790, 16Gb Ram, Soundblaster Z |
| Posted By : DCrocker - 9/27/2016 10:26 PM | Tuba is written at pitch, except (apparently) in the world of British Brass Bands where it is treated as a treble clef transposing instrument. Go figure. Traditions! Differences in fingering BBb, C, F, Eb are the player's problem.
dean
Finally using FinWin 2014 on Windows 7 for everything, despite the irritations…
(Previously used everything back to version 2.0.1) |
| Posted By : Gareth Green - 9/28/2016 2:29 AM | DCrocker said...
Tuba is written at pitch, except (apparently) in the world of British Brass Bands where it is treated as a treble clef transposing instrument. Go figure. Traditions!
It wasn't really "tradition".
In the early days of the brass band movement in the UK there were sound practical reasons, because it meant that all the valved brass instrument players in the group worked to the same fingering system, making it easier for players to switch between instruments as the need arose (often quite frequently) due to changing personnel. It didn't matter whether your instrument was pitched in soprano Bb (Cornets), alto Eb (Horns), tenor Bb (Baritones/Euphoniums), bass EB (Tuba) or Bass Bb (Tuba), a written 'C' scale was still a written 'C' scale and was fingered the same way, so you didn't have to learn a new fingering system if you had to change instrument.
Trombones were left out of the system, because it was felt that learning a slide position system as against a valve fingering system was harder, therefore players didn't switch to and from trombone so much. So tenor trombones in early scores were written in concert tenor clef, and bass trombone in concert bass clef. Over time, the tenor trombones became transposing instruments and changed to treble clef Bb transposing, the same as baritones/euphonium. Players realised that by equating the positions of a descending chromatic scale from a written 'C' (or any other "open" harmonic) to the fingering pattern of the same scale, it was relatively simple to figure out how to read the same transposed parts.
The bass trombone was left out of this and remained as a concert pitch bass clef part, because up until the mid-'60's (approx.) the British bass trombone (not just in brass bands) had a fundamental pitch of 'G', and so the slide positions were completely different from that of a Bb tenor, and didn't lend themselves to re-learning. By the time the US-origin Bb/F triggered bass trombone became common in the UK there was so much "legacy" repertoire written in bass clef that it was never going to be practical to change the bass trombone part to treble clef transposing, and so it remains the only instrument in a brass band score to be written in concert pitch (apart from tuned percussion).
The odd thing is that some modern publishers who provide so called "world parts" with their brass band sets (F horns, bass clef concert baritones/euphs/tubas etc.) also provide a Bb treble clef transposed bass trombone part. Almost full circle ...
Where it becomes really confusing is that in some parts of the world, and in some mixed woodwind/brass ensembles, "World Parts" sometimes also include parts for bass clef transposed Eb and Bb tubas. I guess this is for the same reason as the old UK treble clef transposing system, ie. a player who has learnt a fingering system for the 'C' tuba can now play a part on an Eb or Bb instrument without having to relearn the fingering. Again, almost full circle!
Now, if I can just collect up all these worms and get them back in the can ...
Gareth J. Green
Fin25
Windows 10 (under duress ... ) |
| Posted By : Motet - 11/2/2016 1:50 AM | I uploaded a new version of the custom transposition chart linked-to in my forum signature. I just worded some instructions a little better; no new or changed instruments.
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 11/2/2016 1:58:14 AM (GMT-5) |
| Posted By : Motet - 11/22/2016 2:44 PM | Fixing a mistake in the directions for obtaining 6 flats whenever 6 sharps appear (the examples were correct). (Use the link at the bottom, not the one in my signature).
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition ChartPost Edited (Motet) : 11/22/2016 1:47:24 PM (GMT-6) |
|